RegisterDonateLogin

Also removes carbon scoring.

Welcome Guest Active Topics | Members

what would you errata Options
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, May 22, 2015 5:55:58 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 5/31/2010
Posts: 1,628
fingersandteeth wrote:
No-one is is charge. It's a bunch of people who have invested a huge amount of time and effort for nothing more than extending the life of the game. We don't all agree and it takes ages to come to a consensus because of the mass of differing opinions.

The goal is to make a balanced meta where all factions can compete and all squad types (shooters, melee, balanced, swarms, tanks and tech) have a place in the game.

The design crew rotates and anyone who cares can get involved by playtesting. Playtest enough and show you can work within the chaos without resorting to insults and emotional outbursts and you get to design.

That's how it's worked for 5 years, that's how it will continue to work.



please don't post such blatant lies in the forums. that is just not a fact, there are plenty of deserving individuals that have been and keep being passed over for that statement to hold any credibility.

thats how it has worked for five years.... yeah, you mean that is how it has GOTTEN by for the past 5 years.
once again, your "direction" is so vague that there is actually no goal. it is not concrete enough to have a how are you getting there? what steps are you taking to make sure it is realized, etc. it is just a blanket statement, almost like it was written by a P.R. firm lol.
urbanjedi
Posted: Friday, May 22, 2015 6:12:43 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 2,037
Since every set (except one) has had at least one new designer, and everyone who has designed paid their just dues (IMO) I am not really sure how we would have gotten more people on the design team. Yes, there are some people out there who would be great designers, but unless we somehow start designing 5 sets per year, it is a waiting process.

fingersandteeth
Posted: Friday, May 22, 2015 6:24:09 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/2/2008
Posts: 522
Location: Chicago
The design team rotates with one new individual each set. Old designers return. 4 in a set.
The new spot was given to jake for playtesting, to laura by open invitation for vote, tj is designing because of contributions to proofing, rule work and admin, brad designs because of his rule work.

There is a new guy each set but it's a massive list. Don't tell me that it doesn't happen when it happens every set.




Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, May 22, 2015 6:42:25 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 5/31/2010
Posts: 1,628
Yep and people that contributed from set 2 on keep getting skipped over for,people who have done less. Buts that's cool. Anyways back to my rule sorry I forgot my new rules after such ludicrous posts, but I I'll reapply it now. Have fun everyone and enjoy swm as much as you possibly can
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, May 22, 2015 7:12:16 PM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 1/30/2009
Posts: 6,457
Location: Southern Illinois
I've worked (very) heavily on 6 consecutive sets (the 7th is in progress) and I wouldn't expect to get on as a designer over other applicants, without completing the application process with a strong entry.

That, or sending $500 in unmarked small bills to Bill, delivered to his door by a singing French maid.

BigGrin
kezzamachine
Posted: Friday, May 22, 2015 7:24:23 PM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 9/23/2008
Posts: 1,467
Location: Lower the Hutt, New Zealand
Why is it that awesome threads with really interesting things to contribute to the future of the game always descend into a crapstorm of us and them rants and accusatory statements. This thread was so useful in its first page but its now boring.
urbanjedi
Posted: Friday, May 22, 2015 7:38:03 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 2,037
Deaths_Baine wrote:
Yep and people that contributed from set 2 on keep getting skipped over for,people who have done less. Buts that's cool. Anyways back to my rule sorry I forgot my new rules after such ludicrous posts, but I I'll reapply it now. Have fun everyone and enjoy swm as much as you possibly can


Until the actual application process started for set 10, the previous new designers after set 2 had all been involved heavily from set 1 on.

New designers from set 3 on are
Daniel, Jason, David, Les, Brad, Scott, Trevor, Lou, Tim, Jake K

All of those people were very heavily involved in the first two sets with lots of playtesting and other contributions.

leshippy
Posted: Friday, May 22, 2015 7:42:03 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/17/2009
Posts: 489
kezzamachine wrote:
Why is it that awesome threads with really interesting things to contribute to the future of the game always descend into a crapstorm of us and them rants and accusatory statements. This thread was so useful in its first page but its now boring.


Have to agree with you bro. Thought there might be something here. Looks like the same bullshit, just a different thread.
atmsalad
Posted: Friday, May 22, 2015 8:21:07 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/26/2011
Posts: 951
swinefeld wrote:
I've worked (very) heavily on 6 consecutive sets (the 7th is in progress) and I wouldn't expect to get on as a designer over other applicants, without completing the application process with a strong entry.

That, or sending $500 in unmarked small bills to Bill, delivered to his door by a singing French maid.

BigGrin
hmmm.... What other talents does this singing french maid have?... Just out of pure curiosity... Oh, could you possibly PM me her number? Drool
atmsalad
Posted: Friday, May 22, 2015 8:40:37 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/26/2011
Posts: 951
kezzamachine wrote:
Why is it that awesome threads with really interesting things to contribute to the future of the game always descend into a crapstorm of us and them rants and accusatory statements. This thread was so useful in its first page but its now boring.
That would be my fault, I should have addressed echos opinion, about errata being difficult to communicate, in a different thread... My apologies.
atmsalad
Posted: Friday, May 22, 2015 9:11:57 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/26/2011
Posts: 951
In an attempt to pick the conversation up.
thereisnotry wrote:
I hear you, Etienne; I know you're not attacking me personally. :) Echo actually gave a perfect summary of what my response to your post would have been, so I'll leave it at that.
TimmerB123 wrote:
It boils down to 1 person's NPE vs another's.
Yes, I think that's exactly it. I remember having this conversation with you in person at FrostyCon a few years ago, actually. :)
[You personally don't want to see jedi as powerful as they are in the movies; I personally want to see them closer to that than they currently are. If only one of us was King for a day....]

IMHO, this is actually what makes the whole "What would you errata" question so difficult: it's an incredibly subjective discussion. It's really a question of "What do you personally dislike and want to see changed?" The answer to that question and is very different than the answer to the question of what needs errata.

Some people are upset that their personal top-priority erratas or complaints are not being acted upon, and yet what is top-priority to them personally is not perceived by the majority of the community as being an issue for the game as a whole. This has been true for me as well; I've spoken (quite a bit, actually) about a number of the changes I've wanted to see made to the game. Very few of those changes have come about, though.

Why is that? Well obviously, it's because most of the community is just plain stupid! lol Or maybe it's because the majority of people don't see those things the same way that I do.

Obviously we need to try to address the most-commonly-voiced NPEs, because those will drive people away from the game if they don't get fixed...but there's no way we can (or should) address every one of the things that people mention as an NPE.
For the most part I agree!! I think some of the smaller NPE's, such as lockouts and mice walls, will have to be left in order to address much bigger NPE's, poggle, naboo(I pray) and the like.
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, May 22, 2015 11:39:08 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/8/2010
Posts: 3,623
Everybody love everybody!
Echo24
Posted: Saturday, May 23, 2015 3:47:07 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
atmsalad wrote:
kezzamachine wrote:
Why is it that awesome threads with really interesting things to contribute to the future of the game always descend into a crapstorm of us and them rants and accusatory statements. This thread was so useful in its first page but its now boring.
That would be my fault, I should have addressed echos opinion, about errata being difficult to communicate, in a different thread... My apologies.


I thought you brought up compelling points, and ones that are appropriate for this thread because the whole conversation is on topic regarding what we should errata. The conversation only devolves when somebody insults and dismisses an argument out of hand. If you don't think that players not knowing about errata is a problem, I would hope you would make an argument that addresses the evidence that I have that it would be a problem (unique Bloomilk users, number of printed sets sent out, anecdotal evidence about people printing their own cards) rather than just say "no that's a weak argument".

It IS the responsibility of the design team to consider EVERY player, not just the players here on Bloo. If errata makes the game better for 10 people but worse for 25, it would be irresponsible and damaging to do the errata. With that in mind, before we make errata, we need to analyze how many people errata would help and how many it would hurt. Actual data is important, not just feelings or hunches about it.
atmsalad
Posted: Saturday, May 23, 2015 7:58:00 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/26/2011
Posts: 951
Echo24 wrote:
I thought you brought up compelling points, and ones that are appropriate for this thread because the whole conversation is on topic regarding what we should errata. The conversation only devolves when somebody insults and dismisses an argument out of hand. If you don't think that players not knowing about errata is a problem, I would hope you would make an argument that addresses the evidence that I have that it would be a problem (unique Bloomilk users, number of printed sets sent out, anecdotal evidence about people printing their own cards) rather than just say "no that's a weak argument".

It IS the responsibility of the design team to consider EVERY player, not just the players here on Bloo. If errata makes the game better for 10 people but worse for 25, it would be irresponsible and damaging to do the errata. With that in mind, before we make errata, we need to analyze how many people errata would help and how many it would hurt. Actual data is important, not just feelings or hunches about it.
I still do not find that point substantial. You talk about using actual data in order to back your argument, but there are so many assumptions with your line of reasoning. We are assuming that there are groups that we don't know of that are using the v-sets, or are separated to the point that they don't get information about the community. That they won't find out about the erratas and/or bans. That the pieces in future v-sets are going to affect the banned pieces in question and cause some broken combos that will make the game annoying to casual players to the point where they will stop playing.......

The biggest one for me is that last one. That, even though they are separated from the community, they won't house rule any potential nusances they may find, which many people already do in the play groups that still exist... And instead these negative interactions will drive them away from the game because they are so casual of players? I would think if they are casual players they would be more inclined to house rule against potential NPE's that may, or may not, arise from potential bannings/erratas.

I'm fine with using real, hard evidence for and against banning/errating figures, but there isn't enough of that in your argument against banning figure based on the potential effect it could have on the non-vocal/active/dormant/cloaked/casual side of the community.
Echo24
Posted: Saturday, May 23, 2015 8:29:23 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
There are over a hundred people that visit Bloomilk fairly regularly that haven't even seen this thread. There are over a hundred people that get printed v-sets that aren't represented in this thread. These statements are very strongly supported by factual evidence. These aren't numbers I made up, they are facts.

With that in mind, I feel that it's safe to say that many players would not see or get the errata. This happens in a lot of games. This is the part of my argument that is more intuitive, but I think it follows Occam'a Razor pretty well, and that we should err on the safe side and assume that it's true. I believe that assuming it's true and benign wrong does less damage than assuming it's false and being wrong.

As to your main complaint, I think that if we errata many pieces, it will happen very quickly that pieces work with the errata and ONLY with the errata. In that case, I think it is very foolish to say "well they can just house rule it". Players should never ever be forced to play with house rules, and that's the position you would be putting these people in. I sure wouldn't play a game like that.

We don't have a good system to communicate errata to casual players. That's another fact. This shouldn't be brushed off as just no big deal, it should at least be considered. That's what I'm saying. Like I said before, I supported the CDO ban. If you take this as me saying "we should never ban or errata pieces", you are misunderstanding my post.
droidadmiral
Posted: Saturday, May 23, 2015 9:26:32 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/20/2010
Posts: 172
From AceAce:

"If you or your friends or play group don't like it agree not to play it. I see so few posters on so many threads who I have ever seen at GenCon or any of the Regionals I have regularly attended. If you don't play competitively, no offense but I don't weigh those opinions as much as I do from others. Large competitive groups such as NZ obviously hold much sway and should because they play big events and have very good players. 2 guys from Topeka, I don't much worry about their thoughts unless they are precursors to actual abuse of mini(s) and continued abuse at large events."

From SWM group on Facebook:
"Also on a final note, if you are not playing in the competitive tournaments around the country or world, then simply have a house rule not to use the pieces that you deem broken."

continued from SWM Facebook:
"But, again, if you're not competitive, don't use the new stuff. Make your own stuff. "


but yep most of you care about the "ghost" players that are tearing up their tables with v-set pieces as we speak.. laughable man.

Where do they get these print off cards for the v-sets? bloomilk, swmresources, swmgamers? here's a thought put the errate on the pdf they are downloading, oh wow... look they have the info about the erratas you guys made... imagine that....
Echo24
Posted: Saturday, May 23, 2015 9:34:06 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
I've never said anything like that, and disagree strongly with those sentiments. I speak only for myself and how I think things should be

If they've already printed sets, adding errata to the PDF doesn't help.
droidadmiral
Posted: Saturday, May 23, 2015 9:35:45 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/20/2010
Posts: 172
Echo24 wrote:
I've never said anything like that, and disagree strongly with those sentiments. I speak only for myself and how I think things should be

If they've already printed sets, adding errata to the PDF doesn't help.


yeah it does, your argument is that if you make erratas to old pieces and then new pieces interact with them in a way that leaves their version broken because they don't have the errata, just include the errata in the new pdf. that way the errata is included with the piece that would have broken the game for them.....
thereisnotry
Posted: Saturday, May 23, 2015 10:11:35 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 1,679
Location: Canada
I think Echo makes a good point. As a summary, I think he's saying this:

-The purpose of Errata is to fix or help fix the un-good elements of the game.
-That's because we want the game to be as enjoyable as possible for as many people as possible. [There's our mission statement!]
-Some (perhaps many) SWM players are not regulars here on BM or elsewhere, and so there's a good chance they will miss the errata, and suffer unintended bad consequences as a result.
-Therefore we should not errata too quickly or too often.

I think that's a pretty close summary of what he's been saying.

In the end, any discussion of errata comes down to our desire to make the game as fun as possible for as many people as possible. I've said it before: We'll never be able to please everybody! But with that awareness, we still want to please as many as we can. If people are leaving the game because some elements of it are blatantly un-fun (ie, broken or massively screwed up), then we've got a problem...Errata to the rescue!


Having said that, I do think there are good ways to disseminate any (yes, ANY) errata or changes that we have to make:

--Whenever new sets of V-Sets are mailed out and new erratas have been made, include a written summary of the changes and explanation for them; tape, glue, or otherwise affix this written summary to each pack of cards that goes out. On that summary be sure to include a website reference which points people to a thread, which will be stickied at the top of the BM General forum. This thread--called "Collection of All Official SWM Errata to Date" or something like that--will list each of the erratas that we make as a community, along with the dates when these erratas were made and the reasoning behind them. In general, anybody who can find the General forum on BM will have a super-easy time finding all the errata for the game.
-- ^^Heck, we can even put my email address on this piece of paper, telling people that they can email me if they have any questions about the errata. :) The purpose here is to give people an easy contact if they have questions about the errata.
--Some people print their own V-Set cards from a PDF; no problem. Any PDF we publish which contains errata cards will also contain a section which explains the errata and how people should treat X piece going forward. It should also explain that future designers will take this new statblock into account, rather than the replaced one, when making new pieces.

Maybe there are more steps we can take, but each of these steps is a very easy and very user-friendly method of disseminating errata information. I mention this because I think that yes, we DO have the freedom to make ANY errata that we think needs to be made for the health of the game. In other words, I do not think that the "non-BM-ers" should be a road-block (or even a speed bump!) to us making errata, because it is not difficult to disseminate the information to them.

And therefore, our discussion of future errata can keep the focus where it needs to be: on the health of the game and the good of the community.
AdmiralMotti89
Posted: Sunday, May 24, 2015 5:23:01 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/29/2009
Posts: 491
Location: Nebraska
Echo24 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
and if they come to bloomilk to print the v-sets themselves, then it is their fault if they miss an errata.


That's not really how we want to treat our players.


Maybe I've been looking in the wrong place, but I have not been able to find anything that has all the errata on it. I have looked at pretty much every link under community, all all the ones under the sticky, and if list of errata is there, I have not found it. I don't print the sets myself, I have donated for all 10.

And I can back Echo up when he says that's not a good way to treat players, because honestly, I am frustrated that as far as I know, the best way to find past errata is to look at each piece individually in browse, and no one has responded to my post in rules asking about the errata.

I guess I am complaining, yes, but I can say for a fact that the "You missed an errata? Too bad, so sad" attitude is not going to win new players or keep ones who don't come here enough to catch every errata (Or haven't watched enough law and order to use their detective skills to find it all :) )
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS

Bloo Milk Theme Created by shinja
Powered by Yet Another Forum.net.
Copyright © 2003-2006 Yet Another Forum.net. All rights reserved.