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any more ideas for the balance committee? Options
UrbanShmi
Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 3:33:22 AM
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The Vong don't NEED help against Marn. The squads that play Marn need help against the Vong. It's not a bad thing to have counters in our game...it's actually the basis of a lot of character design.

I feel like this discussion is way off track. Marn and Con Artist can be annoying matchups for certain squads. But having an annoying matchup is not a reason to errata something. IMO, the ONLY reason errata would be warranted would be where a piece has dominated the meta to an extent where you play it, you play a direct counter, or you lose. Adjusting your squad build to be able to adapt in case you see something is not the same as playing a direct counter. Designers make mistakes (not saying Marn was or wasn't a mistake, but in the abstract). Have all the way back to WotC. Pieces that were fine when they came out turn out to be super powerful a couple sets down the line. Or someone uses a piece in an innovative way that might not have been intended when it came out. But errata should be an absolute last resort. It is far preferable to handle NPEs with squad building and design than with rule changes and errata.

There are some suggestions here for design solutions. I don't necessarily agree that even that is needed, but at least it's a potentially productive discussion. My design philosophy is all about opening up options. People should have a choice about how they want to play, and most things should be able to compete. There will always be some very hard matchups, even "autolosses" in certain circumstances. That's okay. With as many squad types as are available to us right now, your realistic chances of facing that particular matchup or of having that matchup define your performance in a tournament are pretty slim. And as has already been pointed out, Marn is NOT an autoloss, even for Emperor-Vader. Emperor doesn't get to lightning as often, or at all. The squad still has lots of ways to kill you, and it's very difficult to kill the Emperor unless you have a lot of direct damage. Almost impossible to get a 3-point win without killing him. So my point is, there are already checks and balances built into the game. I'm still not convinced this piece warrants any more.
Cassus fett
Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 8:23:45 AM
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UrbanShmi wrote:
The Vong don't NEED help against Marn. The squads that play Marn need help against the Vong. It's not a bad thing to have counters in our game...it's actually the basis of a lot of character design.

I feel like this discussion is way off track. Marn and Con Artist can be annoying matchups for certain squads. But having an annoying matchup is not a reason to errata something. IMO, the ONLY reason errata would be warranted would be where a piece has dominated the meta to an extent where you play it, you play a direct counter, or you lose. Adjusting your squad build to be able to adapt in case you see something is not the same as playing a direct counter. Designers make mistakes (not saying Marn was or wasn't a mistake, but in the abstract). Have all the way back to WotC. Pieces that were fine when they came out turn out to be super powerful a couple sets down the line. Or someone uses a piece in an innovative way that might not have been intended when it came out. But errata should be an absolute last resort. It is far preferable to handle NPEs with squad building and design than with rule changes and errata.

There are some suggestions here for design solutions. I don't necessarily agree that even that is needed, but at least it's a potentially productive discussion. My design philosophy is all about opening up options. People should have a choice about how they want to play, and most things should be able to compete. There will always be some very hard matchups, even "autolosses" in certain circumstances. That's okay. With as many squad types as are available to us right now, your realistic chances of facing that particular matchup or of having that matchup define your performance in a tournament are pretty slim. And as has already been pointed out, Marn is NOT an autoloss, even for Emperor-Vader. Emperor doesn't get to lightning as often, or at all. The squad still has lots of ways to kill you, and it's very difficult to kill the Emperor unless you have a lot of direct damage. Almost impossible to get a 3-point win without killing him. So my point is, there are already checks and balances built into the game. I'm still not convinced this piece warrants any more.



+1 Completely agree. I see no reason why Marn needs to be changed. From what I can see, he is functioning exactly as intended. Like you said, just because some one comes up with an awesome way to use a piece doesn't mean it needs erreta. It was different with say Dalaa swarms. She became so broken that you played her, you played a squad dedicated to defeating her, or you might as well not even play at all. Situations like that require something be done, because otherwise like i said, might as well not even play. At this point in time, I feel Marn is nowhere near that level.
DarthMaim
Posted: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 9:14:59 AM
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UrbanShmi wrote:
The Vong don't NEED help against Marn. The squads that play Marn need help against the Vong. It's not a bad thing to have counters in our game...it's actually the basis of a lot of character design.

I feel like this discussion is way off track. Marn and Con Artist can be annoying matchups for certain squads. But having an annoying matchup is not a reason to errata something. IMO, the ONLY reason errata would be warranted would be where a piece has dominated the meta to an extent where you play it, you play a direct counter, or you lose. Adjusting your squad build to be able to adapt in case you see something is not the same as playing a direct counter. Designers make mistakes (not saying Marn was or wasn't a mistake, but in the abstract). Have all the way back to WotC. Pieces that were fine when they came out turn out to be super powerful a couple sets down the line. Or someone uses a piece in an innovative way that might not have been intended when it came out. But errata should be an absolute last resort. It is far preferable to handle NPEs with squad building and design than with rule changes and errata.

There are some suggestions here for design solutions. I don't necessarily agree that even that is needed, but at least it's a potentially productive discussion. My design philosophy is all about opening up options. People should have a choice about how they want to play, and most things should be able to compete. There will always be some very hard matchups, even "autolosses" in certain circumstances. That's okay. With as many squad types as are available to us right now, your realistic chances of facing that particular matchup or of having that matchup define your performance in a tournament are pretty slim. And as has already been pointed out, Marn is NOT an autoloss, even for Emperor-Vader. Emperor doesn't get to lightning as often, or at all. The squad still has lots of ways to kill you, and it's very difficult to kill the Emperor unless you have a lot of direct damage. Almost impossible to get a 3-point win without killing him. So my point is, there are already checks and balances built into the game. I'm still not convinced this piece warrants any more.



+1. Voice of reason UrbanShmi. Thank you for your salient points! ThumpUp
urbanjedi
Posted: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:20:33 PM
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Streamlining how reinforcements and reserves work.

In one instance you can break faction rules sometimes, and the other you cannot.

This might be a swinefeld thing or it could be a balance committee issue, but either way it makes sense to at least take a look at it as WOTC contradicts itself over how these abilities work with Affinity and the timing of affinity, etc.
donnyrides
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:25:19 AM
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This is thread is fascinating.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:51:53 PM
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Praetorite Vong Scout 9

Hit Points:
10
Defense:
11
Attack:
1
Damage:
10

Praetorite Vong Scout

Special Abilities
Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies)
Praetorite Vong Warrior (Counts as a character named Praetorite Vong Warrior)
Cloaked (If this character has cover, he cannot be targeted by nonadjacent enemies)
Force Immunity (Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities)
Forward Positioning (Set up anywhere on your half of the battle map)
Pathfinder (Allies are not slowed by difficult terrain within 6 squares of this character)
Recon (Roll twice for initiative once per round, choosing either roll, if any character with Recon in the same squad has line of sight to an enemy)
Stable Footing (Not slowed by difficult terrain or low objects)


Drop vong warrior off of this.... instantly fixes a major problem lol.
jen'ari
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:51:50 PM
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Marn is not a full problem, it is jsut a design that has too many possibilities and because of that he makes for some really crappy gameplay sometimes.



Onto suggestions for the balance committee.

I like what somebody said in the other forum and I am paraphrasing.

It seems that maybe things are not too OP right not but are mass NPE's. This is a great statement and something that I am proud of the community for recognizing.

My suggestion to the balance committee is to find those mass NPE's and determine if something should be done about them.

I, personally, feel the following pieces are mass NPE's


Admiral Ozzel
C3PO (directly the cloaked part, stealth would be fine mixed with R2's smoke screen)
Warrior Caste Subcommander
Daala (yes still)
Mas Amedda
jen'ari
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:53:26 PM
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P.S. you nerf Mas Amedda and Admiral Ozzel and Imperials could actually be fun...

Balance committee I would would ask how many styles can be played in Imperials competitively?


Vader of Lothal is a decent step (not there) but has to have some huge set back with no other commanders.

Palps Reborn is good, but not there

There is no game play option other than out activate and swap that I know of. That is not balance.


#freethefaction


From WotC at that!
TheHutts
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:15:08 PM
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jen'ari wrote:

Admiral Ozzel


Why Ozzel and not Dodonna or San Hill? I agree that Imps are stronger than the others as an overall faction at the moment.
jen'ari
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:36:40 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
jen'ari wrote:

Admiral Ozzel


Why Ozzel and not Dodonna or San Hill? I agree that Imps are stronger than the others as an overall faction at the moment.


Ozzel seems to be the one that is abused.
He is also the one that creates a a whole faction specific style of play.

Dodonna is in rebels and NR and their are lots of different options to play other than out activate.

San Hill is the same way.

If you nerf/get rid of Ozzel you, by design, nerf the Thrawn swap.
The main point of singling out Ozzel is twofold

1) he dominates the faction
2) he creates an NPE for LOTS of people.

The existence of Thrawn and San Hill massively hurts creative design in Imperials. This is why Imperials is such a dull faction. What is fun in Imperials?? A faction with Vader and Palps and Starkiller and all sorts of awesomeness is dull because of that combo. What can be done? You cannot make great shooters, any power piece has to be nerfed (VoL) or cost too much to care that much 71 (Lord Vader).

P.S. that combo also hurts design in Fringe as well.

If others started to abuse Dodonna and San Hill I would say the same thing than as well. I made a squad called Kaio-Ken x 10 that I think could be abused using Dodonna.
TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:53:59 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
Praetorite Vong Scout 9

Hit Points:
10
Defense:
11
Attack:
1
Damage:
10

Praetorite Vong Scout

Special Abilities
Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies)
Praetorite Vong Warrior (Counts as a character named Praetorite Vong Warrior)
Cloaked (If this character has cover, he cannot be targeted by nonadjacent enemies)
Force Immunity (Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities)
Forward Positioning (Set up anywhere on your half of the battle map)
Pathfinder (Allies are not slowed by difficult terrain within 6 squares of this character)
Recon (Roll twice for initiative once per round, choosing either roll, if any character with Recon in the same squad has line of sight to an enemy)
Stable Footing (Not slowed by difficult terrain or low objects)


Drop vong warrior off of this.... instantly fixes a major problem lol.


Big + 1

It's a great scout. Certainly something to think about having 1 or 2 of in your squad. Not a warrior.
TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 3:03:45 PM
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As to Ozzel/Dodonna/San, it has to be all or none.

Seps without San stink.

I actually think you can play imps without Ozzel more than seps without San Hill.

And while you can play rebels without dodonna, they are almost always better with him. Even Trevor's 8 act squad last year had him.


I think Imps have the MOST non-act control options of the 3. Vader of Lothal, Daala, Sid, Hethrir, Thrawn (yes he CAN be run without act control - maxed out maidens is still viable for one)




I think GM Tarkin, and others that require LoS could stay.
TheHutts
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 3:12:36 PM
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It's worth considering that San Hill is useful as a MTB counter too.
jen'ari
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:39:39 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
As to Ozzel/Dodonna/San, it has to be all or none.

Seps without San stink.

I actually think you can play imps without Ozzel more than seps without San Hill.

And while you can play rebels without dodonna, they are almost always better with him. Even Trevor's 8 act squad last year had him.


I think Imps have the MOST non-act control options of the 3. Vader of Lothal, Daala, Sid, Hethrir, Thrawn (yes he CAN be run without act control - maxed out maidens is still viable for one)


I think GM Tarkin, and others that require LoS could stay.

I see 3 questions.
#1 Does the piece dominate a faction?
#2 is it an NPE?
#3 Does it win alot?

to #1 yes it does, in competitive play VoL is not really an option so far, palps is not, daala is not either. Phasma is not.

#2 absolutely, out act and swap is very much a Huge NPE

#3 yes, just won a regional.



San Hill

#1 I don't think so. I think they are some builds with Whorm and others that are more competitive than VoL and Palps
#2 Absolutely. out act strafe sucks, but lancers have been negated pretty well.
#3 I dont think we have seen San Hill win a lot.


Dodonaa
#1 I would say it might dominate in competitive play for Rebela
#2 .... sometimes but in a lot of cases it is not huge out activate and still makes for decent gameplay, Rebels seems to not use out act levitate, swap very much.
#3 yes


I guess to clarify my point is that out activate swap is the biggest NPE. since we are discussing NPE's.

Rebels NPE is not as bad as Ozzel/Thrawn or San Hill/Strafe.
General_Grievous
Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:06:22 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
It's worth considering that San Hill is useful as a MTB counter too.


Agreed, he is also really good for reserves and the seps need him if they even want to pretend to run more costly pieces like Dooku/Sideous. You already killed Poggle, don't take San from me too.

Overall though I'm really liking the variety these days in all of the different factions.
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, June 23, 2017 12:56:34 PM
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Supressive Fire should be talked about. I'm not sure what the best solution is, but the ability is crazy sauce.


Perhaps just a cost raise for Morrigan.
shmi15
Posted: Friday, June 23, 2017 1:07:27 PM
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I think the committee should check out the Vong Faction. Flapper

I think the committee should think about creating a "banned" list, to encourage new squad builds.

I think the committee should look into "Booming voice" and possibly nixing it all together.

I think a new rule, where you can only activate X number of characters in between initiatives. Like 16. Your squad can have however many, but you can only activate 16 of them (random number)

I think act control should be checked out, and possibly Banned.

And I think Strafe attack should get a -4 to that characters attacks.
Lord_Ball
Posted: Friday, June 23, 2017 1:35:10 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
I think the committee should look into "Booming voice" and possibly nixing it all together.


With how many CEs are going rangeless anyway I don't think this is really a problem on its own, particularly powerful/abusive CEs could be on a list of not working with BV, but overall its "fine"
DarthMaim
Posted: Friday, June 23, 2017 2:34:08 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
TheHutts wrote:
jen'ari wrote:

Admiral Ozzel


Why Ozzel and not Dodonna or San Hill? I agree that Imps are stronger than the others as an overall faction at the moment.


Ozzel seems to be the one that is abused.
He is also the one that creates a a whole faction specific style of play.

Dodonna is in rebels and NR and their are lots of different options to play other than out activate.

San Hill is the same way.

If you nerf/get rid of Ozzel you, by design, nerf the Thrawn swap.
The main point of singling out Ozzel is twofold

1) he dominates the faction
2) he creates an NPE for LOTS of people.

The existence of Thrawn and San Hill massively hurts creative design in Imperials. This is why Imperials is such a dull faction. What is fun in Imperials?? A faction with Vader and Palps and Starkiller and all sorts of awesomeness is dull because of that combo. What can be done? You cannot make great shooters, any power piece has to be nerfed (VoL) or cost too much to care that much 71 (Lord Vader).

P.S. that combo also hurts design in Fringe as well.

If others started to abuse Dodonna and San Hill I would say the same thing than as well. I made a squad called Kaio-Ken x 10 that I think could be abused using Dodonna.



This is comical. You want to ban Ozzel? You're saying he's the almighty piece that is bringing unbalance to the SWM universe? LOMFL LOL........................Come on man

Counters to Ozzel;

Dodonna
San Hill
Neo-Crusader Scout
Mandalorian Counter-Intelligence Officer
Bastila Shan
Any piece with Disruptive-which all factions have access too
Queen Amanoa-At the end of this character's turn, you may select any 1 unactivated enemy. This round, after all characters in your squad are activated, at the end of that turn that enemy is considered activated; save 16. (This includes Droid and Savage characters.)
Cunning Attack squads

And I am sure I am missing many more counters to Ozzel. Not only does this not make sense, but in the thick of the battle, it becomes extremely difficult playing an Ozzel team when you can only activate 1, and your opponent activates 2. In my regional win, there were times I threw Ozzel into the fray to try and get him killed, and my opponent would just ignore him. Dodonna is a far more powerful piece, as he can choose to activate 1 or 2.


Stormtrooper: Let me see your identification.

Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: [with a small wave of his hand] You don't need to see his identification.

Stormtrooper: We don't need to see his identification.

Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: These aren't the droids you're looking for.

Stormtrooper: These aren't the droids we're looking for.

Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: He can go about his business.

Stormtrooper: You can go about your business.

Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: Move along.


Stormtrooper: Move along... move along.




jen'ari
Posted: Friday, June 23, 2017 4:43:28 PM
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DarthMaim wrote:

This is comical. You want to ban Ozzel? You're saying he's the almighty piece that is bringing unbalance to the SWM universe? LOMFL LOL........................Come on man

Counters to Ozzel;

Dodonna
San Hill
Neo-Crusader Scout
Mandalorian Counter-Intelligence Officer
Bastila Shan
Any piece with Disruptive-which all factions have access too
Queen Amanoa-At the end of this character's turn, you may select any 1 unactivated enemy. This round, after all characters in your squad are activated, at the end of that turn that enemy is considered activated; save 16. (This includes Droid and Savage characters.)
Cunning Attack squads

And I am sure I am missing many more counters to Ozzel. Not only does this not make sense, but in the thick of the battle, it becomes extremely difficult playing an Ozzel team when you can only activate 1, and your opponent activates 2. In my regional win, there were times I threw Ozzel into the fray to try and get him killed, and my opponent would just ignore him. Dodonna is a far more powerful piece, as he can choose to activate 1 or 2.



why throw out "this is comical"? and than all that stormtrooper said? did it help your argument?

I never said he is the almighty piece bringing unbalance to the SWM universe. There is an old saying "White water in the morning".

I said that Ozzel creates an NPE and dominates the faction. Almost every competitive Imperial squad has Ozzel. Out act/swap.

Like it or not your army had the same set up and it won a regional.

some of those "counters" are just simply not counters.

@bold. maybe you should ask around on how Thrawn/Ozzel is played if you do not know. Their really is no "thick of the battle"

also I agree that Dodonna is more powerful if it was piece vs piece however, Ozzel has a partner named Thrawn. Dodonna has no other partner that powerful... so Thrawn/Ozzel is more powerful than Dodonna/????

the faction plays the largest factor in determining a pieces power.

Your Ozzel/Thrawn squad is not maxed out to its potential is the point.... yet it still won.

So maybe try this again, read what I wrote and then possibly say something like "oh my bad, I see what you meant".
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