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TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, August 25, 2016 9:03:33 PM
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urbanjedi wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:

FlyingArrow wrote:

The Imperial player doesn't want to kill gambit-getting Luke Stormie because it would give back the +4/+10 and Ysalamiri.


I thought there was a ruling that once a character is on your squad, it is always considered a part of it, even after death. So you'd lose the bonus for good.


This is, quite frankly, a rules mess.

For the purposes of Unique, defeated characers are still in your squad. You can't bring in another version of the same character with Reserves even if your first one died.

For the purposes of Black Sun, they are still in your squad. You still get Grenades if your Vigo is defeated.

For the purposes of Talon and Specialization, your squad no longer contains them when they're defeated.

Apparently, a defeated piece "is in the same squad" (Black Sun wording) but your squad doesn't "contain" them (Talon's wording on both My Pets from Myrkr and CE). If your head just exploded, I'm on your side. I complained about it when I learned about it. I'll see if I can google up the ruling.



I actually thought the same as Tim, that once you lost the bonus you couldn't get it back. Very similar to how I believe prideful works that if you get a guy who costs more (ie quinlin) you lose it and can't get it back.

I have actually asked around (I don't think I have ever gotten an official response) on how Specialization works.


Specialization (as intended) only looks at the figs on the board. Apparently Talon works this way too.
juice man
Posted: Friday, August 26, 2016 6:07:06 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Just like Stormtroopers rerolling using Palps on Throne, I don't think the abstraction is that they are using the Force. Rather, than Sidious/Palpatine is so strong that he influences all sorts of things related to his squad. Think of it as Sidious rerolling the attack for them. The ugnaughts still don't have a Force rating or count as Force users.
I always thought of this as a "game mechanic". The way you present it reminds me of the Thrawn books and Thrawn telling a disbelieving aid that Palpatine "improved" the performance of his pilots/troopers through the force. Nice.BigGrin
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, August 26, 2016 7:15:02 AM
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Goodness... we just need Scruffyhan to come on here make his point, then go win some tournaments in dominating fashion like he did with the klats to prove they need changed, so we can all move on...
Darth_Jim
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2016 3:16:10 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
Goodness... we just need Scruffyhan to come on here make his point, then go win some tournaments in dominating fashion like he did with the klats to prove they need changed, so we can all move on...


Through Bloomail awhile back, ScuffyHan and I discussed eating cheeseburgers at GenCon. As I have only gotten fatter and more fond of cheeseburgers since that correspondence, if he comes back I will hold him to that.
TimmerB123
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2016 10:36:46 AM
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Yun-Ne'Shel Priest

I was actually present during THE ONLY playtest of the piece. (It happened in my apartment during a game day, I went back and forth playing other games and peeking it at it. Frankly I wish I would have paid a little more attention.) I did express my concerns about avoid defeat, but it was blown off since I generally hate the ability.

Looking back over the playtest, it's all kind of a mess. First - Vong was being played with more uniques, and only 3 warriors. The warriors made horrible save rolls (failing often with the save 9), which let to the erronious thought that the save bonus needed to be bigger. Furthermore, if you look closer, it's actually a BAD matchup for the Vong. Evade from Zenoc means nothing, so it's wasted points here. They didn't get the jedi hatred which could have helped, but 3 warriors and 5 scouts prevented that. Bane having 30 base damage and rage means he can take out a warrior with one swat if they fail Crab Armor, and he also has Djem So to hit back when they do hit him. Leaping assault means a dead warrior no matter what (assuming no 1s rolled) and sweep means damaging multiple at once. This was bound to be a massive Sith victory no matter what.

That aside - there were many pitfalls with this character from the beginning.

A big complaint about Vong is that they have confusing abilities. Consistency between abilities would help significantly with this, but this figure dropped the ball. All "Devotion" other than this one are on fanatics of that god, and on the priest of that god, who also gives it out (through CE or sacrifice.) Makes sense right? It follows a pattern. Yun Ne'Shell is all about life, so a sacrifice ability didn't make sense, but it still should have followed the pattern. The Priest should have had the Devotion, and give it out via CE.

Furthermore, since this piece came out in set 9, and set 8 had only just been released at Gencon, that meant in essence this piece was being made before the clearly broken Lah Warriors were being fully explored. This piece was finished and out before any major use of the Lah Warriors happened, or else it would have been clear the changes that were needed. This is not the designer's fault. There was virtually no other input on this figure. I take my share of the blame for not PTing, and for not examining closer the sole PT and stats until after it came out.

After significant talks with the main designer of the Yun Ne'Shell Priest, there are the following things that were not intended by the piece at all, and he's quite distraught about:

Helping non-uniques.
A possibly eternal bodyguard.

The intent was always to help the uniques (and maybe a few NUs that accompany). It was never used or even really considered in conjunction with spamming cheap warriors.



Addressing all of the above, here is what the design should have been - and what the balance committee should change it to now:




Quote:
Quote:
45/45

Yun-Ne'Shel Priest - RM: Taung Warrior (MotF40)
Yuuzhan Vong
cost 13

hp 30
def 16
atk +1
dam 10

Special Abilities
Melee Attack [Can attack only adjacent enemies]

Avoid Defeat [Whenever this character would be defeated, make 2 saves, each needing 11; if both succeed, this character has 10 Hit Points instead of being defeated]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Force Immunity [Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities]

Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion [This character gets +4 to save rolls as long as it has another Yuuzhan Vong ally within 6 squares]


Commander Effect
Unique Yuuzhan Vong gain Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion


"The Jedi revere life, as does Yun-Ne'Shel, the Modeler."
―Nom Anor, in his guise as the Prophet Yu'shaa






Only useful to Uniques, no eternal bodyguard EVER (even if we make a Unique Vong bodyguard), Can't be disrupted (original intent).

It's more simple, it lines up with the way other devotions work, and keeps the original intent of the figure intact.


This is more than simple community whining about the piece. On top of almost universal dislike of the mechanics and general opinion that it is an issue - the DESIGNER of the piece says it can be abused in ways that were never intended.

This is the biggest reason for errata.
DarkDracul
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2016 12:28:57 PM
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It's true, Tim goes a little crazy over Avoid Defeat.
But in this case his point is valid.

--Pure BB NPE-3rd Place 2016 Chicago Regional--
28 Zenoc Quah
20 Yuuzhan Vong Hunter on Quednak
19 Warrior Caste Subcommander
15 Yammosk War Coordinator
14 Yuuzhan Vong Seer
13 Yun-Ne'Shel Priest
11 Yuuzhan Vong Ossus Protector
70 Domain Lah Warrior x7
10 Zonoma Sekot Scout x2
(200pts. 16 activations)

Got 3rd in one of the toughest regionals with a squad I tossed together the night before.. No activation control, No vong reinforcement options, No characters with aggressive negotiations, No giving warriors charging, No giving warriors double...

Quednak, Warrior Caste, Protector, 7 Lah Warriors, (*10 Blast Bug characters.)
Then a Seer to extended the Blast Bug Range to 8 squares so I could Blast Bug disruptive pieces.
The sad part was while I was doing 200 unpreventable damage a round my opponents struggled to kill just 1 of my 10 warriors.
Ossus Protector Bodyguards everything...made all his Crab armor 7 saves and made a ridiculous amount of save 7 avoid defeat saves.

It's a total humiliation to many great squads and the skillful players who run them.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2016 2:04:07 PM
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What (and how) did it lose to?
urbanjedi
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2016 3:49:32 PM
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I beat him with Ewoks in chicago. I kept hitting his guys (strafing his guys) that he eventually failed his avoid defeat saves and then I just started just trading ewoks for damage to race him in the damage race.
DarkDracul
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2016 5:12:50 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
What (and how) did it lose to?


I have been driving to nearly every regional for years.
Sometimes losing every single game but I keep coming back because I love the game and the people.
I've never had anything make me feel like quitting SWM until this Blast Bug nonsense.
But I soon discovered some people don't consider errata necessary unless it's something that's winning.
So I played Vong in an attempt to prove to others that it needs errata. I think Mike Giles did as well.
We were' 4th and 6th at GenCon this year.

This season I've lost to Jason 3x, Trevor 1x, and tied with Randy 1x

SO BAN JASON K!!!!

Home Games w/ Vong: Mike, Atn, Chris, Greg, Randy... Undefeated.

Chicago Regional
1 Jake K with Sith Caedus SL 3pt win
2 Laura K with OR 3pt win
3. Randy B with Daala and Stealth 1pt tie (Superstealth and Diplomats!)
4 Jason K with Ewok Glider swarm 0pt loss
5 Lilly W with Daala Raxus/ Sled 3pt win
6. Jason K with Ewok Swarm 0pt loss

Gen Con
1. TJ with Sith Caedus SL 3pt win
2. Jason K with Kybuck 0pt loss
3. Trevor with LnL speeder 3pt win
4. Mike Giles w/ Charging Vong 3pt win (Blast Bug beats Charging Vong)
5 Trevor witth LnL speedr 0pt loss

Team Tournament
Randy B w/ Talon 3pt win
Alex w/ I for get 3pt Win
Lou w/ Cin&Serra 3pt win
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2016 6:02:37 PM
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How much would it help if Blast Bugs were 10dmg instead of 20?
Echo24
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2016 6:08:42 PM
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I think the first thing that should be investigated should be what Vong squads look like if the DL Warrior didn't exist. That seems to be the most common issue; didn't one of the top 8 Vong squads not even use the Subcommander?
TheHutts
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2016 7:04:06 PM
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I feel like Lah Warriors are the overpowered piece, but the Subcommander and the Priest are the NPEs.
urbanjedi
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2016 7:15:51 PM
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Well, you could just swap Lah Warriors for High Bred Warriors (DOTF 11pts) and the squad is very similar (you lose an act or two and you lose speed 8) if you are doing a charging squad.

If you are just doing a Blast Bug squad, you could switch to the old school Universe Warrior at 8 pts, maybe a Preaterite vong scouts at 9 (or 7 with DeGara) or the high bred at 11.

Caedus
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2016 7:22:09 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
How much would it help if Blast Bugs were 10dmg instead of 20?


IMO the amount of damage doesn't seem to be the issue. The issue lies with its totally unpreventable aspect. With a faction that already can't be defended with force powers, can roll evades at 7, reduce damage w/ 2, 7, and 12's then extend its SA's by 2 more squares to make them, virtually undisrupted. And leave us not start on the possibility of attaching aggressive negation on a couple of them.

IMO a save attached to BB may be the simplest fix of them all
urbanjedi
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2016 7:26:10 PM
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I think the more problematic issue is the priest and the +4 saves (especially on evade, crab armor, avoid defeat, etc) on a bunch of non-u is basically a ton damage prevention on a very inexpensive piece.

I personally think if the priest were changed to just UNIQUE for all of its bonuses, it would help greatly.

For the most part, and against most squads Spit Poison is almost as good as Blast Bug. The only place it is different is it avoids abilities like Damage Reduction/Force Attuned Armor/etc which not every piece has (not even a majority of the ones that see play. In addition the Spit Poison guys are usually superstealthed with Nom so are much harder to get rid of and explode when you do kill them.

Now I could see (and could even get behind) if Blast Bug had a save to make the damage 10 instead of 20 unpreventable damage.

Blast Bug Replaces Attacks, range 6: deal 20 damage to target enemy (SAVE 11 FOR 10 DAMAGE); this damage cannot be prevented

I don't necessarily think that Vong are a problem per say, but I think that very much like Panaka of Theed, that the balance committee COULD change it without any issue.

DarkDracul
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2016 7:26:19 PM
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@TJ Yeah 10 damage would be better. My litmus test would be if a squad like your Caedus SL could hold it's own against it.
It should be a tough match but not so loopsided. IMO

Echo24 wrote:
I think the first thing that should be investigated should be what Vong squads look like if the DL Warrior didn't exist. That seems to be the most common issue; didn't one of the top 8 Vong squads not even use the Subcommander?

Yes, Mike did not use Warrior Caste or Quoreal. You don't really need Blast Bug at all to compete at top tables. He had "Charging 16" hitting for 40 a hit. Double Twin. Scarification and Shaper. It's very tough if you can't kill 40hp VCA7 warriors in one go. A lot of us have wanted to see Vong do well and I always accepted Charging warriors as Vong's teir 1 squad.

The Warrior Caste just adds something OP that was being pretty awesome already.




jak
Posted: Sunday, August 28, 2016 4:30:42 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
How much would it help if Blast Bugs were 10dmg instead of 20?


about halfWink
DarkDracul
Posted: Sunday, August 28, 2016 5:23:47 AM
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jak wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
How much would it help if Blast Bugs were 10dmg instead of 20?


about halfWink
LOL #Best post ever
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, August 28, 2016 11:29:14 AM
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Warrior Caste Subcommander -

Re: suggestion of adding a save to blast bugs - I personally don't want to add more saves to the game, we already have WAYYYYYYYYYYY too many. Saves have their place in the game, but frankly there needs to be less, especially the save 11s - it is literally like flipping a coin. It doesn't make the game more fun, it makes it more luck based.

I think a big issue is that it is automatic. Not only in terms of getting through defenses (although that clearly bugs some people), but the fact that a 10 pt fig can nail a 22 defense for 20 damage automatically. If that happens with a save (spit poison for example) then it's not much better.

If it were based on an attack roll, I think it would be so much better.

For example - (Replaces attacks: attack a target enemy within 6 squares for exactly 20 damage; if the attack hits, this damage cannot be prevented)

People in general would be fine with it (or certainly much better with it), because it's an ATTACK, and you have to make the attack roll. You know, the basis of our game: if (Attack + roll) is equal to or greater than Defense, then apply Damage.

You'd have to go back to making sure they had enough Attack to hit. You'd have a hard time hitting that 22 defense in cover. Defense would MEAN something. I don't mean save based defense (LS defense, evade, parry, etc), or armor - I mean Defense with a capital D - the rating on the card.

THAT is the biggest issue with Blast Bug. Not only does it get around defenses such as armor, LS defense, evade, etc. It gets completely around Defense, the rating. I understand most damage causing SAs do that, but people take solace when there is a save. When someone attacks and gets around a save based defensive ability (getting adjacent vs Evade for example), you still have to get by the Defense (stat rating) by making the attack roll to hit.

Blast bug does BOTH. And from a 10 pt piece (actually as low as 8). From a 19pt commander.



I am of course not suggesting this change by the Balance Committee. At all. This is more from a "why is it such a problem" analyzation, both from the gameplay as well as the NPE viewpoint.


What I am urging the balance committee to change as far as the Subcommander - would be the following:

1. Make it 10 damage (might even be able to drop cost a couple points)

or

2. Raise cost 3-6 points

In all honesty, I think even a change as small as having the Subcommander be 22 points (cannot be brought in through Reinforcements) would make a big difference. Then you build with it or not. No option to bring it in only when you need it.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, August 28, 2016 11:33:51 AM
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Lah Warriors:

Speed 8 is so good. Especially in a faction that easily gives charging. It's no longer +2 spaces, now it's +4. It's a 33% speed increase. It is not in any way insignificant. High-Bred warriors were brought up, and it was a huge oversight to completely replace them, because they are actually good! Often overlooked, but they are a very good piece. Lah Warriors are CLEARLY superior, and 1 pt less!

Make them 14pts, done.
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