RegisterDonateLogin

Powerful you have become, the Bloo Milk I sense in you.

Welcome Guest Active Topics | Members

Balance Team Pieces Brainstorm Options
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, August 28, 2016 11:48:24 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
To summarize my suggestions (in order of importance):

1. Domain Lah Warrior
- change cost to 14
Reason:Game balance issues, NPE

2. Yun-Ne'Shel Priest
- change to this:
Quote:
45/45

Yun-Ne'Shel Priest - RM: Taung Warrior (MotF40)
Yuuzhan Vong
cost 13

hp 30
def 16
atk +1
dam 10

Special Abilities
Melee Attack [Can attack only adjacent enemies]

Avoid Defeat [Whenever this character would be defeated, make 2 saves, each needing 11; if both succeed, this character has 10 Hit Points instead of being defeated]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Force Immunity [Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities]

Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion [This character gets +4 to save rolls as long as it has another Yuuzhan Vong ally within 6 squares]


Commander Effect
Unique Yuuzhan Vong gain Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion


"The Jedi revere life, as does Yun-Ne'Shel, the Modeler."
―Nom Anor, in his guise as the Prophet Yu'shaa

Reason: Game balance issues, NPE, against designer intent


3. Warrior Caste Subcommander
-change cost to 23, OR change Blast Bug damage to 10 and change cost to 17
Reason: Gameplay balance issues, NPE (probably the biggest we have currently)

4. Stormtrooper TK-421
-change to have "Why aren't you at your post?' function as optional for the receiving player
Reason: Gameplay balance issues
Acknowledging I am in the minority on this one, but I stand behind it.


No change needed:

Man Hierogryph
Reason: Not a big enough gameplay issue or NPE for enough people to warrant change
Conceding this one.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Monday, August 29, 2016 4:27:13 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/23/2008
Posts: 906
Location: Central Pa
TimmerB123 wrote:
Stormtrooper TK-421
-change to have "Why aren't you at your post?' function as optional for the receiving player
Reason: Gameplay balance issues
Acknowledging I am in the minority on this one, but I stand behind it.


You may indeed be right...I just have not had to deal with this issue as a fringe player yet. I think it would be wrong for me to get behind making a change to a piece that might negatively impact a faction I like to run without first trying to deal with it as it stands now. Until I do, I'd defer to people who have. If I have to be involved in making a decision on it, my stance right now would be more conservative regarding any action taken.
Mando
Posted: Monday, August 29, 2016 6:50:13 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 10/14/2008
Posts: 1,344
Location: Chokio, MN
TimmerB123 wrote:


2. Yun-Ne'Shel Priest
- change to this:
Quote:
45/45

Yun-Ne'Shel Priest - RM: Taung Warrior (MotF40)
Yuuzhan Vong
cost 13

hp 30
def 16
atk +1
dam 10

Special Abilities
Melee Attack [Can attack only adjacent enemies]

Avoid Defeat [Whenever this character would be defeated, make 2 saves, each needing 11; if both succeed, this character has 10 Hit Points instead of being defeated]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Force Immunity [Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities]

Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion [This character gets +4 to save rolls as long as it has another Yuuzhan Vong ally within 6 squares]


Commander Effect
Unique Yuuzhan Vong gain Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion


"The Jedi revere life, as does Yun-Ne'Shel, the Modeler."
―Nom Anor, in his guise as the Prophet Yu'shaa

Reason: Game balance issues, NPE, against designer intent




This would be great! no more near immortal Bodyguards and vong swarms that survive way longer than they should. shifts the focus to uniques and i think giving them +4 to saves is much better imo than making it +4 to everyone in the game. good design suggestion! ThumpUp
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, August 29, 2016 1:07:33 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
Darth_Jim wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Stormtrooper TK-421
-change to have "Why aren't you at your post?' function as optional for the receiving player
Reason: Gameplay balance issues
Acknowledging I am in the minority on this one, but I stand behind it.


You may indeed be right...I just have not had to deal with this issue as a fringe player yet. I think it would be wrong for me to get behind making a change to a piece that might negatively impact a faction I like to run without first trying to deal with it as it stands now. Until I do, I'd defer to people who have. If I have to be involved in making a decision on it, my stance right now would be more conservative regarding any action taken.


Completely fair. You don't do Vassal do you? That would be a good way to playtest this.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:25:16 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 5/31/2010
Posts: 1,628
TimmerB123 wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Stormtrooper TK-421
-change to have "Why aren't you at your post?' function as optional for the receiving player
Reason: Gameplay balance issues
Acknowledging I am in the minority on this one, but I stand behind it.


You may indeed be right...I just have not had to deal with this issue as a fringe player yet. I think it would be wrong for me to get behind making a change to a piece that might negatively impact a faction I like to run without first trying to deal with it as it stands now. Until I do, I'd defer to people who have. If I have to be involved in making a decision on it, my stance right now would be more conservative regarding any action taken.


Completely fair. You don't do Vassal do you? That would be a good way to playtest this.





make it a save.
DarthMaim
Posted: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 9:39:31 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/27/2008
Posts: 1,110
Location: Los Angeles, California
1. Domain Lah Warrior
- change cost to 14
Reason:Game balance issues, NPE

2. Yun-Ne'Shel Priest
- change to this:

Quote:
45/45

Yun-Ne'Shel Priest - RM: Taung Warrior (MotF40)
Yuuzhan Vong
cost 13

hp 30
def 16
atk +1
dam 10

Special Abilities
Melee Attack [Can attack only adjacent enemies]

Avoid Defeat [Whenever this character would be defeated, make 2 saves, each needing 11; if both succeed, this character has 10 Hit Points instead of being defeated]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Force Immunity [Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities]

Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion [This character gets +4 to save rolls as long as it has another Yuuzhan Vong ally within 6 squares]


Commander Effect
Unique Yuuzhan Vong gain Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion


"The Jedi revere life, as does Yun-Ne'Shel, the Modeler."
―Nom Anor, in his guise as the Prophet Yu'shaa

Reason: Game balance issues, NPE, against designer intent


3. Warrior Caste Subcommander
-change cost to 23, OR change Blast Bug damage to 10 and change cost to 17
Reason: Gameplay balance issues, NPE (probably the biggest we have currently)


+1.


I agree with Tim's takes on the Vong. Everyone here at my LGS here in California except 1 person ( yes, looking at you Lord Razzia ) can't stand the Vong. ALL of our fun scenarios, especially anything with Epics, BAN the Vong. Besides, they are no longer canon in the SW universe Flapper
billiv15
Posted: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 5:08:15 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 1,441
Bump
Sthlrd2
Posted: Friday, September 2, 2016 7:25:42 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 5/21/2009
Posts: 171
Is the Yun Ne'shel priest stronger than anticipated? Yes it is, but it is also not as I intended. I playtested the piece myself and had many conversations with people, and the CE was supposed to be 'choose 1 Unique Yuuzhan Vong to gain avoid defeat'. With this in mind and the way I intended, I made the mistake of leaving off "Unique". A big oops on my part, completely overlooked because in my thoughts, it was right. So that would be my suggestion for a change.
I'm sorry, I should have paid more attention.
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, September 3, 2016 3:58:31 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/20/2015
Posts: 1,227
TimmerB123 wrote:
To summarize my suggestions (in order of importance):

1. Domain Lah Warrior
- change cost to 14
Reason:Game balance issues, NPE

2. Yun-Ne'Shel Priest
- change to this:
Quote:
45/45

Yun-Ne'Shel Priest - RM: Taung Warrior (MotF40)
Yuuzhan Vong
cost 13

hp 30
def 16
atk +1
dam 10

Special Abilities
Melee Attack [Can attack only adjacent enemies]

Avoid Defeat [Whenever this character would be defeated, make 2 saves, each needing 11; if both succeed, this character has 10 Hit Points instead of being defeated]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Force Immunity [Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities]

Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion [This character gets +4 to save rolls as long as it has another Yuuzhan Vong ally within 6 squares]


Commander Effect
Unique Yuuzhan Vong gain Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion


"The Jedi revere life, as does Yun-Ne'Shel, the Modeler."
―Nom Anor, in his guise as the Prophet Yu'shaa

Reason: Game balance issues, NPE, against designer intent


3. Warrior Caste Subcommander
-change cost to 23, OR change Blast Bug damage to 10 and change cost to 17
Reason: Gameplay balance issues, NPE (probably the biggest we have currently)


+1 to 2 and 3. Yuuzhan Vong Uniques should be more powerful than their support pieces and changing the Yun-Ne'Shel Priest to Tim's suggestion would solve a ton of problems, for instance, his #1 suggestion. (back to that later)

Also, changing the cost of the Sub-Commander cost to 23 would be a great call as well. It's either in or out.

As far as Suggestion #1, IMO, if you change the YS Priest to Tim's suggestion, you don't necessarily need to up the DL Warrior's cost. We have just made a huge statement in the poll about increased damage output. The chance that you'll need 60 to kill in one round greatly diminishes without the Priest boost.


CorellianComedian
Posted: Saturday, September 3, 2016 2:33:46 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/30/2014
Posts: 1,048
Just throwing this out there... the DLW still way outclasses another piece that costs the same and is itself very good. Changing the Sub-Commander and Priest will help the NPE, but the DLW still has the inherent flaw of needlessly outclassing a good piece. But the Priest change and the Subcommander cost boost are definitely more important than the High-Bred warrior's feelings LOL
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, September 5, 2016 7:01:30 PM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,407
Blast Bug is unbalanced because it gets around every defense. It is not an attack, so it gets around high defenses and Evade/Parry/LSDefense. It has no save, so FPRR and Survival Expert don't help. It ignores every type of armor, so it goes through Shields, Dark Armor, Crab Armor, Beskar'gam, Force-Attuned Armor, Force Bubble, etc. Some of those things wouldn't work anyway because it's a Vong ability so you couldn't spend FP to respond anyway. It's range 6, so Distraction won't help even though it's granted via CE. It's Vong, so Bastila won't help even though it's granted through a CE. Disruptive should help and might in some cases, but they have a CE to extend the range to 8. Shrouded also should help, but again the range can be extended to 8.

No other ability in the game does that or comes close.

Look at the other replaces-attack range 6 abilities. Many have saves - Grenades, Thud Bug. Some don't - Lightning (costs FP and Vong/Ysalamiri stops it), Flamethrower. But none of them go through armor.

Look at the other unpreventable damage abilities. They all have major drawbacks. Mostly they are either Force powers that use up your FP, or they are abilities that are on Huge or Savage pieces. And the one that makes crits unpreventable. Or Crack Shot where you have to combine fire to get it unpreventable. In all those cases, they are on attacks where you still have to hit, so a high defense could still help you. I may be forgetting something but I can't think of another non-attack ability that deals unpreventable damage (other than Ajunta Pall's new trick, which only works in response to getting shot).

Also, when you look at unpreventable damage, for the most part those characters are dealing lower damage than other similarly costed characters. Which makes sense. Most characters are preventing damage somehow. When you deal unpreventable damage, you should deal about half of what your equally-costed peers do. Since about half of what they deal gets negated.

Getting past every defense like that could be okay if it were balanced with its own detriments and a high cost, but it isn't. I can't see it being balanced without going down to 10dmg even after doing whatever is needed to the other pieces.
TheHutts
Posted: Monday, September 5, 2016 7:11:17 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,561
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
FlyingArrow wrote:
Blast Bug is unbalanced because it gets around every defense.

....

Getting past every defense like that could be okay if it were balanced with its own detriments and a high cost, but it isn't. I can't see it being balanced without going down to 10dmg even after doing whatever is needed to the other pieces.


I pretty much agree with this - Blast Bug was tough and unfun to play against even before the other discussed pieces were added.
urbanjedi
Posted: Monday, September 5, 2016 8:21:50 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 2,038
At 10 damage, I am not even sure it would be used.

Since you have (at least in most squads), double twin at a +10 (or 14 or 18 or whatever) with your guy for 20/30/whatever, Blast Bug is actually a lot less then what they "normally" do via attacks.



FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 4:06:45 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,407
Depends on who you are giving it to.
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 7:19:09 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
FlyingArrow wrote:
Blast Bug is unbalanced because it gets around every defense. It is not an attack, so it gets around high defenses and Evade/Parry/LSDefense. It has no save, so FPRR and Survival Expert don't help. It ignores every type of armor, so it goes through Shields, Dark Armor, Crab Armor, Beskar'gam, Force-Attuned Armor, Force Bubble, etc. Some of those things wouldn't work anyway because it's a Vong ability so you couldn't spend FP to respond anyway. It's range 6, so Distraction won't help even though it's granted via CE. It's Vong, so Bastila won't help even though it's granted through a CE. Disruptive should help and might in some cases, but they have a CE to extend the range to 8. Shrouded also should help, but again the range can be extended to 8.

No other ability in the game does that or comes close.

Look at the other replaces-attack range 6 abilities. Many have saves - Grenades, Thud Bug. Some don't - Lightning (costs FP and Vong/Ysalamiri stops it), Flamethrower. But none of them go through armor.

Look at the other unpreventable damage abilities. They all have major drawbacks. Mostly they are either Force powers that use up your FP, or they are abilities that are on Huge or Savage pieces. And the one that makes crits unpreventable. Or Crack Shot where you have to combine fire to get it unpreventable. In all those cases, they are on attacks where you still have to hit, so a high defense could still help you. I may be forgetting something but I can't think of another non-attack ability that deals unpreventable damage (other than Ajunta Pall's new trick, which only works in response to getting shot).

Also, when you look at unpreventable damage, for the most part those characters are dealing lower damage than other similarly costed characters. Which makes sense. Most characters are preventing damage somehow. When you deal unpreventable damage, you should deal about half of what your equally-costed peers do. Since about half of what they deal gets negated.

Getting past every defense like that could be okay if it were balanced with its own detriments and a high cost, but it isn't. I can't see it being balanced without going down to 10dmg even after doing whatever is needed to the other pieces.


Very well put, in essenence a mistake from the start.

FlyingArrow wrote:
In all those cases, they are on attacks where you still have to hit, so a high defense could still help you.


This specifically is a very salient point to me.

Blast bugs would not be nearly as big of a deal if they had to make an attack roll. A DL Warrior with an attack of 6 trying to hit a big bad jedi with 22 defence ain't gonna hit too often. It they do hit, THEN it can go through armor. Fine, Vong tech. But you have to be able to hit the guy first.
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 7:20:17 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
urbanjedi wrote:
At 10 damage, I am not even sure it would be used.


Good. That's perfectly fine for the game. Lots of pieces don't get used.

Massively hated NPEs that are broken are the issue.
juice man
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 9:12:03 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/5/2009
Posts: 2,240
Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
TimmerB123 wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
At 10 damage, I am not even sure it would be used.


Good. That's perfectly fine for the game. Lots of pieces don't get used.

Massively hated NPEs that are broken are the issue.
I like the idea that the damage is unpreventable, but you still get save 11 so it's not automatic. So then the Blast Bugger has to think - better for twin attack vs. parry or shields or 50/50 for 20 unstoppable damage.
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 9:42:21 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
juice man wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
At 10 damage, I am not even sure it would be used.


Good. That's perfectly fine for the game. Lots of pieces don't get used.

Massively hated NPEs that are broken are the issue.
I like the idea that the damage is unpreventable, but you still get save 11 so it's not automatic. So then the Blast Bugger has to think - better for twin attack vs. parry or shields or 50/50 for 20 unstoppable damage.


No more saves! Lol
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, December 21, 2016 6:16:18 PM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,407
TimmerB123 wrote:
1. Domain Lah Warrior
- change cost to 14
Reason:Game balance issues, NPE

+1

Quote:

2. Yun-Ne'Shel Priest
- change to this:
Quote:
45/45

Yun-Ne'Shel Priest - RM: Taung Warrior (MotF40)
Yuuzhan Vong
cost 13

hp 30
def 16
atk +1
dam 10

Special Abilities
Melee Attack [Can attack only adjacent enemies]

Avoid Defeat [Whenever this character would be defeated, make 2 saves, each needing 11; if both succeed, this character has 10 Hit Points instead of being defeated]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Force Immunity [Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities]

Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion [This character gets +4 to save rolls as long as it has another Yuuzhan Vong ally within 6 squares]


Commander Effect
Unique Yuuzhan Vong gain Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion


"The Jedi revere life, as does Yun-Ne'Shel, the Modeler."
―Nom Anor, in his guise as the Prophet Yu'shaa

Reason: Game balance issues, NPE, against designer intent


I think the Priest should get a change, but this looks a bit extreme. It's a change to the definition of Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion, remove one CE and add a different one. I'd rather just see a straight cost increase, but I think the current stat block should probably be around 25-30.

However, the above stat block is better than no change at all. Not sure what the best solution is.

Quote:

3. Warrior Caste Subcommander
-change cost to 23, OR change Blast Bug damage to 10 and change cost to 17
Reason: Gameplay balance issues, NPE (probably the biggest we have currently)


I favor changing Blast Bug to 10dmg. No cost change to Warrior Caste Subcommander. (Fewer changes are better.)

Raising the cost would be another possible solution, but 23 is still too low. Closer to 30.

Quote:

4. Stormtrooper TK-421
-change to have "Why aren't you at your post?' function as optional for the receiving player
Reason: Gameplay balance issues
Acknowledging I am in the minority on this one, but I stand behind it.

I don't think a change is needed. (Fewer changes are better.) But if there is a change, this should be the change. It can be implemented via glossary update - no new card needed.

EDIT: Actually, I'd vote for the change. But don't have a strong opinion either way.

Quote:

No change needed:

Man Hierogryph
Reason: Not a big enough gameplay issue or NPE for enough people to warrant change
Conceding this one.

Agreed - no change needed.
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS

Bloo Milk Theme Created by shinja
Powered by Yet Another Forum.net.
Copyright © 2003-2006 Yet Another Forum.net. All rights reserved.