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Poll Question : Should Unkar Platt be changed? If so how?
Choice Votes Statistics
No, it's time for reserves and their pieces to end 6 27.272727 %
Yes, make Wager not affect force powers 0 0.000000 %
Yes, make Wager not affect special abilities 0 0.000000 %
Yes, change Wager to 50/50 -/+4 to initiative roll 4 18.181818 %
Yes, increase cost to 21-31 to take away Lobot 10 45.454545 %
Yes, ban him entirely, focus on balancing Krell 2 9.090909 %

Unkar Platt Options
atmsalad
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 3:01:51 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
After all this "discussion" if you can even call it that I am under the belief the community needs to vote on a legit leadership committee for the future of this game.

Holy shit, and you guys say I have an agenda... Blink
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 3:02:36 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
After all this "discussion" if you can even call it that I am under the belief the community needs to vote on a legit leadership committee for the future of this game.

Holy shit, and you guys say I have an agenda... Blink


my agenda is pretty clear...... a leadership council for the game.


Edit* I posted a new forum chat for this.
CorellianComedian
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 3:19:10 PM
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Okay, I voted for option 4, but I think it's off by one, and then I read it again and realized it wasn't quite what I thought it was, but I would still vote for it. Subtracting 4 from your reserves number still kills Immediate Reserves. I guess I'd actually go for changing Wager to be a -10 instead of a -4 or -9. That way it still actually does what it does, but it Immediate Reserves doesn't die a merciless death. Still kills the init control Reserves needs.

Anyways, enough rambling. I'd like to see Unkar outed one way or another. If nothing else make Wager affect SAs only and not Force powers.
atmsalad
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 3:23:46 PM
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Lol, I play what wins and im not going to be ashamed of that no matter how much you try to squad shame me Jen'ari. I really thought you would be above that, guess not...

I put input in on Jangolore, Plageous(helped to come up with their CE's), Pushed for more scissors pieces to counter daala and more counters to Strafe. Pushed for 10 point Gambit to weaken swarms and argued that daala should have been changed to charging assault (still OP). Advocated for no 2 point mice, push for measures on the BT to weaken out act/smash, and so much more... But your hung up on the fact that I play out act and smash when I want to win? Alrighty then...
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 3:26:53 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
Lol, I play what wins and im not going to be ashamed of that no matter how much you try to squad shame me Jen'ari. I really thought you would be above that, guess not...

I put input in on Jangolore, Plageous(helped to come up with their CE's), Pushed for more scissors pieces to counter daala and more counters to Strafe. Pushed for 10 point Gambit to weaken swarms and argued that daala should have been changed to charging assault (still OP). Advocated for no 2 point mice, push for measures on the BT to weaken out act/smash, and so much more... But your hung up on the fact that I play out act and smash when I want to win? Alrighty then...


you got me I am a squad shamer, but I do so only to point out hypocrisy.

Feed the pigs Squealer and forget the rest of the farm.


Why was it a good idea and good for the community to shut down reserves?
Is it because a few individuals thought it was good and what they wanted? or was it for the good of the game in general?
Why do a small group of people get to decide reserves should be tier 2?

you have yet to answer, no one has. It is probably embarrassing to do so.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 3:40:38 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
Lol, I play what wins and im not going to be ashamed of that no matter how much you try to squad shame me Jen'ari. I really thought you would be above that, guess not...

I put input in on Jangolore, Plageous(helped to come up with their CE's), Pushed for more scissors pieces to counter daala and more counters to Strafe. Pushed for 10 point Gambit to weaken swarms and argued that daala should have been changed to charging assault (still OP). Advocated for no 2 point mice, push for measures on the BT to weaken out act/smash, and so much more... But your hung up on the fact that I play out act and smash when I want to win? Alrighty then...


you got me I am a squad shamer, but I do so only to point out hypocrisy.

Feed the pigs Squealer and forget the rest of the farm.


Why was it a good idea and good for the community to shut down reserves?
Is it because a few individuals thought it was good and what they wanted? or was it for the good of the game in general?
Why do a small group of people get to decide reserves should be tier 2?

you have yet to answer, no one has. It is probably embarrassing to do so.



I want to answer for them so here goes:

Why was it a good idea and good for the community to shut down reserves?--- sometimes the community is wrong about what should be good and what needs counters.

Is it because a few individuals thought it was good and what they wanted? or was it for the good of the game in general?---- there are only a few individuals active left in this game so, of course it was only the idea of a few. These few thought it was for the good of the few left.

Why do a small group of people get to decide reserves should be tier 2?---because this group of people get to decide what should and shouldn't be available at regionals and gencon to play against or with.

hehehe tongue in cheek here: these would be my legit answers if I were the designers of this piece:

Why was it a good idea and good for the community to shut down reserves?-- reserves are unpredictable therefore we can't possibly get a good playtest on these pieces because it is to random.

Is it because a few individuals thought it was good and what they wanted? or was it for the good of the game in general?---- because we can't get those good playtests we want to err on the side of caution when it comes to those abilities in tournament settings


Why do a small group of people get to decide reserves should be tier 2?--- we try to do whats best for the competitive players first because they are the ones that travel and spend money. non-competitive players can agree to not use him or allow him in their own tournaments with no effect on their games. but like I said earlier we can't possibly playtest reserve pieces accurately so we wanted to marginalize their effect on the competitive game.


As designers if we have offended anyone with this piece it was not the intention of the piece. we are just trying to maintain balance for the competitive players. maybe we got it wrong, maybe we didn't, we will certainly take this feedback seriously and look at things again. thank you for your comments and posts we are looking at it right now.
juice man
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 4:46:18 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
jak wrote:
holy cow Jenny, give it a rest

Do you feel it necessary to follow me around and make comments that do not contribute to anything?
You have been around for a while, maybe you should put an actual response on here.

EDIT: I just got my nuts clipped and calling me Jenny hurts Crying
Better that then one of your kids running up to give you a big hug!Scared
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 5:25:11 PM
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Some perspective from someone who watched the set being developed but was not a designer:

As I mentioned, the MTB negates Reserves even harder than Unkar does. If you have a dedicated Reservers squad like Jason's "Ode to General Grievous", you have Reserves on 5 numbers. MTB negates all 5 of those and makes your extra rolls irrelevant, and it works 95% of the time. Unkar negates 2 of those 5 (plus shutting down all the rerolls and stuff), and it works 95% of the time.

More concretely...
Ode on its own: Reserves 44%-76% of the time (depending on whether Recon is active and you have the FP for Sense the Future)
Ode vs MTB: Reserves 2.2%-7.6% of the time (depending on whether Recon is active and you have the FP for Sense the Future)
Ode vs Unkar: Reserves 16.5%-18.1% of the time (depending on whether Recon is active and you have the FP for Sense the Future)

During design, one person raised the issue of Unkar vs Reserves in the playtest forum, and a change was made directly in response to that concern being raised. (The original version of the ability gave Reserves squads a 0% chance of getting Reserves.) That person didn't even do any PT of the piece. If they had done some PT and they continued to have an issue with it, perhaps it would have been changed again. If anyone else had also raised the issue, perhaps it would have been changed.

In any case, dedicated Reserves squads pretty much face an auto-loss against squads with Lobot or Marn, and that's exactly how it was two months ago and exactly how it was two years ago, because the MTB has been around for a long time.

What has changed since Unkar was designed is Jason's genius move of putting the MTB in the Reserves squad. It's been an option forever but nobody ever thought about it (or at least never played it), and it wasn't on the radar during Unkar's design. Without the "MTB-in-a-Reserves-squad" option, Unkar would have very minimal effect on the playability of Reserves - because a better counter already existed. With MTB around, Reserves squads were already unplayable at a competitive level. Or so it seemed... as it turns out, if a Reserves squad has its own MTB it's very playable (and probably Tier 1). Because of that, Unkar does have a significant impact. He keeps Reserves squads right where they always have been... good if they aren't countered but terrible if Lobot can bring a counter.

If Jason weren't such a genius, the reaction to Unkar would likely be, "Dang - Reserves squads are slightly more Tier 2 than they already were. Oh well."
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 5:39:06 PM
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General_Grievous wrote:

Flying, with respect brother since you are pretty much the SWM Jedi Council, I don't think that comparing MTB and Unkar are the same. Four reasons:

Haha - thanks. I'm nowhere close to the SWM Jedi Council. Just one designer among many.

Quote:
-two of the factions: Vong and Seps still triggered off one.

True, although dedicated Vong Reserves squads don't really exist.

Quote:
-one could still use Sense the Future or anticipation to counteract MTB

Anticipation doesn't do anything against the MTB. You can roll twice but whatever you pick automatically becomes a 1 anyway.
You can use Sense the Future and if you rolled a 1 you can give it to your opponent to negate MTB. But otherwise swapping numbers doesn't help - your initiative check still automatically becomes a 1.

Quote:
-you could MTB a MTB

Very significant. Unknown when Unkar was designed.

Quote:
-Additionally while MTB was a very strong counter for reserves, you still had to trickle pieces to your opponent and slowly kill of your squad. Unkar has no penalty, activating random commander that is sitting in the back anyways or just taking 5 point Crumb to completely disable your opponents squad makes Bastilla look gentle by comparison


So this is a significant point. For a Lobot+MTB to counter Reserves, it needs the MTB, 3-5 pieces of fodder to sacrifice, and then either a shutoff (e.g. Self-Destruct) or another 2-3 pieces of fodder to make sure they will last the whole skirmish. You can't fit all of that into Lobot's 20 points - you only get 4 fodder with the MTB. But most squads with Lobot have either enogh fodder or Self-Destruct or something in the squad. So probably 80-90% of squads with Lobot can counter a Reserves squad with an MTB, but a full 100% of them can counter with Unkar. Either way, it's enough that Reserves isn't a viable competitive option. (Unless you're genius enough to add an MTB to the Reserves squad.)

Quote:
And still tier 2 where they were isn't tier nonexistent like they are now


But I don't think that changes their tier. If you take Reserves to a tournament, you're screwed against Lobot either way - whether it's an MTB or Unkar you still lose. (Again - without taking into account adding an MTB to the reserves squad.) You can still try it. Lobot isn't in every squad.
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 6:32:01 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Some perspective from someone who watched the set being developed but was not a designer:

As I mentioned, the MTB negates Reserves even harder than Unkar does. If you have a dedicated Reservers squad like Jason's "Ode to General Grievous", you have Reserves on 5 numbers. MTB negates all 5 of those and makes your extra rolls irrelevant, and it works 95% of the time. Unkar negates 2 of those 5 (plus shutting down all the rerolls and stuff), and it works 95% of the time.

More concretely...
Ode on its own: Reserves 44%-76% of the time (depending on whether Recon is active and you have the FP for Sense the Future)
Ode vs MTB: Reserves 2.2%-7.6% of the time (depending on whether Recon is active and you have the FP for Sense the Future)
Ode vs Unkar: Reserves 16.5%-18.1% of the time (depending on whether Recon is active and you have the FP for Sense the Future)

During design, one person raised the issue of Unkar vs Reserves in the playtest forum, and a change was made directly in response to that concern being raised. (The original version of the ability gave Reserves squads a 0% chance of getting Reserves.) That person didn't even do any PT of the piece. If they had done some PT and they continued to have an issue with it, perhaps it would have been changed again. If anyone else had also raised the issue, perhaps it would have been changed.

In any case, dedicated Reserves squads pretty much face an auto-loss against squads with Lobot or Marn, and that's exactly how it was two months ago and exactly how it was two years ago, because the MTB has been around for a long time.

What has changed since Unkar was designed is Jason's genius move of putting the MTB in the Reserves squad. It's been an option forever but nobody ever thought about it (or at least never played it), and it wasn't on the radar during Unkar's design. Without the "MTB-in-a-Reserves-squad" option, Unkar would have very minimal effect on the playability of Reserves - because a better counter already existed. With MTB around, Reserves squads were already unplayable at a competitive level. Or so it seemed... as it turns out, if a Reserves squad has its own MTB it's very playable (and probably Tier 1). Because of that, Unkar does have a significant impact. He keeps Reserves squads right where they always have been... good if they aren't countered but terrible if Lobot can bring a counter.

If Jason weren't such a genius, the reaction to Unkar would likely be, "Dang - Reserves squads are slightly more Tier 2 than they already were. Oh well."


I guess I don't really see the point. Reserves where fine and close to tier 1 (possibly) while adding an MTB. So that is where we are at..

So MTB negates reserves? but.. add in MTB and it doesn't negate reserves. so MTB is not really a counter to reserves. unless they bring in MTB from reserves and you have Marn?

now what is your option to counter the counter and still play reserves?

Even casually this is just a quick bring in from Lobot. No need to plan for a MTB or have Marn. Much much easier.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 6:44:50 PM
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When Unkar was designed, the idea of using an MTB in a Reserves squad was unknown. So when Unkar was designed, anyone looking at its impact on the playability of Reserves squads would have said it was minimal: a slightly worse counter than MTB but is accessible to slightly more squads than an MTB is. A Reserves squad in a competitive environment would still face the same problem, though: Lobot kills it.
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 6:53:37 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
When Unkar was designed, the idea of using an MTB in a Reserves squad was unknown. So when Unkar was designed, anyone looking at its impact on the playability of Reserves squads would have said it was minimal: a slightly worse counter than MTB but is accessible to slightly more squads than an MTB is. A Reserves squad in a competitive environment would still face the same problem, though: Lobot kills it.


Thank you, I understand what you are saying now.

I do not understand, I don't expect you to either, why it was so important for another Reserves counter (an easier and just as effective reserves counter) to have been put in place if, at the time, MTB was already such a good counter.

It seems overkill to try and undo past designs (krell) that should not have a certain interaction (both force powers). Especially since the original design of Unkar completely negated reserves.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 7:05:01 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
Even DarthJim isn't perfect, Jim would be the first to tell you he didn't think 2 point pieces were a problem


LOL Talk to my wife. There are times she'd be quite happy to share my list of imperfections.

Seriously, the whole mouse issue was a great learning experience for me. I saw during that season how wrong I was saying it wasn't an issue. In fact, when we changed it, I wanted to go further...make it possible to defeat mice just by ending your movement in their square, because after the changes you can still use them to keep pieces from getting adjacent to something.

I've since taken more of a 'wait and see' attitude with stuff now, not out of wisdom, but to keep from saying stupid stuff again. I'd really like to see if Plutt has an adverse effect on the meta (not just reserves) before addressing him. I do appreciate all of the opinions expressed here on both sides, especially the number crunching. I'm a truck driver and that stuff makes my brain hurt. I'm reading so keep talking but don't be mean to each other. (Unless you're insulting an Eagles fan lol.)
atmsalad
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 7:30:33 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
Thank you, I understand what you are saying now.

I do not understand, I don't expect you to either, why it was so important for another Reserves counter (an easier and just as effective reserves counter) to have been put in place if, at the time, MTB was already such a good counter.

It seems overkill to try and undo past designs (krell) that should not have a certain interaction (both force powers). Especially since the original design of Unkar completely negated reserves.

Unkar is the low activation squads answer to reserves. An MTB would run the risk of eating through your squad. You have to sacrifice about 15% effectiveness in order to not risk eating yourself though, and initiative is most likely lost.
General_Grievous
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 7:37:14 PM
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I still think the issue when comparing MTB with Unkar is that MTB actually helped Vong and sep reserve builds while only crushing Imperial and Republic squads. You could still counter the MTB with combo of Marn and Tyber Zann stealing the enemies MTBs. Expensive yes but still possible to be playable. Unkar removes the die modifiers and still ambushes the key numbers of a reserve build. And again MTB has a cost associated with it to hamper the enemy reserve team, Unkar does not.

Also in reference to the whole double MTB bit that was discovered, why aren't we addressing or tweeking the MTB to not be in a reserves squad instead? Would counter the craziness of Pong/Kazdan, or perhaps the root of the problem itself Pong should be looked at instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water that a couple people don't like?
General_Grievous
Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 7:48:39 PM
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atmsalad wrote:

Unkar is the low activation squads answer to reserves. An MTB would run the risk of eating through your squad. You have to sacrifice about 15% effectiveness in order to not risk eating yourself though, and initiative is most likely lost.


I think an answer to reserves is a bit of an understatement, it's an auto win against it for no cost. There are literally infinite possibilities of different ways to help low activation squads deal with reserves, aside from what already exists:

-Never Tell Me The Odds, cancels out abilities but at least leaves force power mods and the numbers intact
-Wuher, makes droids more expensive and really messes with Kazdan and Sep builds but in a more balanced way

So why not extend on that? Any of the options I listed above are possible options:
-a cheap fringe force user that can spend force points to cancel anticipation and/or STF
-a never tell me the odds version
-Wager but only a -/+ to either teams roll and making it 4 or 10 instead
-or just upping the cost, even into the 20s would still allow Jabba fringe reinforcements 30 to have it in his underused toolbox next to Finn Galfridian

But as is it's crippling
General_Grievous
Posted: Sunday, August 13, 2017 12:43:53 PM
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Well it's been up for a few days and nice to know I'm not alone in my thinking and that the majority agree this guy needs to change, he is brokenly strong and reserves still have a place in the game. Appreciate the support and interest over what I feel is a big deal and sets a bad precedent. Obviously this poll only represents a small portion of the active community (I know I speak for the entire northern Canadian playgroup and 8 others in addition to myself so I'm sure it's similar elsewhere). With the support of most people I'll leave it in the hands of the balance committee and hope they do what the people chose.

Seems like the most popular was a cost increase, it could still exist in a Bastilla state where anyone wanting to bring pure reserves would think twice about it coming in but wouldn't be able to be auto-included and break the game. Also the simplest fix and would allow the designer to retain close to his original design.

Second most was changing Wager to just a +/- instead of shutting down reserve die modifiers entirely.

Also want to apologize if I added to any negativity here and overall I really think the designers are doing great work, sometimes things slip through and we have shown that we as a community can agree on unbalance and errata things. Which I hope that the case was made for here.

Also want to thank everyone for taking the time to post their views and explain different perspectives. I went from thinking reserves were completely fine to acknowledging that Krell could use a look by the balance committee (if and when Unkar is toned down). We all have different views and I'm very proud of the work and community spirit that goes into the game and this website. Something we can all agree on is that we definitely care quite passionately about the game hahaha.

Thank you for the debate, God bless America and the North is signing out.
harryg
Posted: Sunday, August 13, 2017 4:14:10 PM
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I'm going to add my own two cents to this discussion. I on first glance at the choices voted for a cost change but I think I'm going to revise that choice upon further review. Taking away Con Artist is, I think, an important thing to be able to bring in through Lobot because Marn (this has been discussed to death) completely nerfs a lot of stuff to (Sith Mastermind). I actually think Wager is indeed what needs to be changed if anything (This means I'm also against banning him entirely to rebalance Pong Krell). I'm sure everybody else has done this in their head or something but I'm going to put it here laid out, if for no other reason than to just help me visualize it. Obviously all ways to modify initiative go away with Wager. So that's that. Choosing a 5 as your Wager number means on that getting reserves on a 5 or 15 are out (I'm using Ode to Grievous as the squad example, by the way). Choosing a 0 means that you only hit Lobot's reserves if the roller hits a 20. So that's one very slim chance of hitting Reserves, which like everybody else is saying basically cripples the squad type. There's a few votes for changing Wager to a "50/50 +4/-4 to initiative roll". I'm not entirely sure what that means, actually, but I'm pretty sure it means that you're only affecting your own initiative roll. If so, this is a good decision to help 'save' reserves, but that isn't my only worry with this situation. I think I stand where atmsalad does, where Unkar went overboard but Reserves should not be Tier 1. Reserves running rampant with the recent Eureka moment that MTB counters itself where Reserves are concerned is not a fun-sounding idea. Moving on to the other options. If Wager doesn't affect Special Abilities, then you lose Anticipation and Sense the Future, which severely reduces the chance to get reserves. If Wager doesn't affect Force Powers, then you lose Recon, which is, in my opinion, not severe enough a blow. All that considered, I think I'm more for Making it not affect Special Abilities. Losing Anticipation and Sense the Future makes Reserves not tier 1, but Recon is still a solid chance to get reserves, right? Ode, while hurting without Anticipation and StF, could still be solid just eyeballing it if you had an ARF Trooper in there for more Recon shots or something. I think it should be playtested, but I think my vote is for making Wager not affect Special Abilities upon analyzing it more.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Sunday, August 13, 2017 4:40:15 PM
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harryg wrote:
Choosing a 5 as your Wager number means on that getting reserves on a 5 or 15 are out (I'm using Ode to Grievous as the squad example, by the way). Choosing a 0 means that you only hit Lobot's reserves if the roller hits a 20. So that's one very slim chance of hitting Reserves, which like everybody else is saying basically cripples the squad type.


Ode hits Reserves on 5, 10, 11, 15, 20. Choosing 5 as your Wager number means that if you are correct, the opponent's 5 instead becomes -4, or 15 becomes 6. If you are incorrect on Wager, the opponent's initiative is unchanged. So that's a 15% chance of hitting Reserves (no higher because Unkar negates all the extra rolls an whatnot). But if Unkar rolls a 1, Wager is negated and all the extra init rolls turn back on. So if Unkar hits a 1, the chances of hitting Reserves depends on whether you get Recon rolls. But it ends up being a little north of 16% chance for Reserves.
harryg
Posted: Sunday, August 13, 2017 10:51:56 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
harryg wrote:
Choosing a 5 as your Wager number means on that getting reserves on a 5 or 15 are out (I'm using Ode to Grievous as the squad example, by the way). Choosing a 0 means that you only hit Lobot's reserves if the roller hits a 20. So that's one very slim chance of hitting Reserves, which like everybody else is saying basically cripples the squad type.


Ode hits Reserves on 5, 10, 11, 15, 20. Choosing 5 as your Wager number means that if you are correct, the opponent's 5 instead becomes -4, or 15 becomes 6. If you are incorrect on Wager, the opponent's initiative is unchanged. So that's a 15% chance of hitting Reserves (no higher because Unkar negates all the extra rolls an whatnot). But if Unkar rolls a 1, Wager is negated and all the extra init rolls turn back on. So if Unkar hits a 1, the chances of hitting Reserves depends on whether you get Recon rolls. But it ends up being a little north of 16% chance for Reserves.


Right, I didn't make it clear but that's assuming your Wager number is correct. This is kind of just a different way of me visualizing it, I think; one of your posts from earlier with the statistics i think is the best benchmark to kick off any discussion about Unkar.
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