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Consensus on maps? Is it possible? Complain here. Options
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 12:14:05 PM
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Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 7,344
Of the 34 maps that have been on the Restricted List since 2010, I know some of them were chased off the list because someone raised issues with the map. I know that happened to these:

Knight's Enclave
Tomb of the Acolytes
Peaceful City
Throne Room

I know I've also heard at least minor complaints about some sort of imbalance on lots of other maps. (We seem to like to complain, don't we?) I don't think the following were removed for balance reasons, and some are still on the list. Some of the complaints are minor, some other complaints I don't agree with, but I agree with some of the others. I've heard complaints at times for all of these maps:

Smuggler's Base (strafe)
Hall of Judgement (easy to shoot commanders)
Rancor Pen (strafe)
Grand Plaza (strafe)
Nightclub (too shooty)
Mining Colony: Upper (1 square-wide hallways)
*Great Library (huge access)
Cantina (too much low objects)
*Outlaw City (too much low objects)
*Imperial Plaza (bad approach from right)
Asteroid Base (no commander protection on right)
*Simulation Deck (too hard to stay away from pits)
Offworld Shipping Center
Offworld Cargo Docks (I don't remember the complaint for either of the Offworld maps, but I know I've heard them)
Cliffside Citadel (horrible for right side)
*Cloud City (huges disadv and Battle Ready adv)
Rhen Var Citadel (huges disadv)
*Commander's Office (I forget, but there was a complaint about balance.)

That leaves the following maps that I haven't heard any balance complaints about. I've definitely heard complaints about half of them. For example, I really don't like Modular Base. But I've only heard complaints about not liking the map. I haven't heard any complaints saying these maps are unbalanced and should be kept off the Restricted List for that reason.

*Bothan Spynet
Jabba's Palace
Anchorhead
*Command Deck
*Dark Academy
Theed Palace
Crime Lord's Palace
Gangster's Vault
Pirate Moon (SW)
Mos Eisley Residence
Starport District
*Modular Base

So what are we missing? Which of these 12 maps have major issues that nobody's talking about? Is it possible that the whole community might agree on some of these maps?

===
Edit: Stars (*) on current Restricted List for ease of reference.

Edit: More edits as complaints come in.
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 12:45:37 PM
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Crime Lord's palace was designed to be the most balanced map for all modes of play and I think that wasn't pretty well executed. The rest of them, most aren't huge friendly so that's something to consider.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 12:51:22 PM
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General_Grievous wrote:
Crime Lord's palace was designed to be the most balanced map for all modes of play and I think that wasn't pretty well executed. The rest of them, most aren't huge friendly so that's something to consider.


I think your bias may be showing. They all look huge friendly to me.


jen'ari
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 1:16:43 PM
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I do not know about all that stuff. I find that different maps make for fun play and moving on is necessary.

I really do feel that we should have a "hanging of the shirt (map)" ceremony for Commander's Office at gencon this year. Or maybe even a retiring of the flag ceremony where we burn the maps in remembrance of them.

Luke burned Vader as well so there is that symbolism as well.

Or we can all come with our cremated Commander's Office maps and spread them in the bushes at gencon.
surf_rider56
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 1:26:52 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
General_Grievous wrote:
Crime Lord's palace was designed to be the most balanced map for all modes of play and I think that wasn't pretty well executed. The rest of them, most aren't huge friendly so that's something to consider.


I think your bias may be showing. They all look huge friendly to me.




Of course GG is biased. He Loves his Sep huges!
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 1:27:01 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
I do not know about all that stuff. I find that different maps make for fun play and moving on is necessary.

I really do feel that we should have a "hanging of the shirt (map)" ceremony for Commander's Office at gencon this year. Or maybe even a retiring of the flag ceremony where we burn the maps in remembrance of them.

Luke burned Vader as well so there is that symbolism as well.

Or we can all come with our cremated Commander's Office maps and spread them in the bushes at gencon.


Yep. I get that. I know there are maps people are tired of or just don't like. I'm just wondering if we can actually agree on some as being balanced maps.

I like variety on the map list, too. I do want to see a couple WotC options, but beyond that I vote for more turnover. Actually, for variety's sake I'd vote for a larger map list of about 15-18, but there seems to be more support for a smaller list of 10-12 maps. Whatever the size of the map list, I'd wouldn't mind seeing 8 or more maps rotate in every year.
urbanjedi
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 2:03:46 PM
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General_Grievous wrote:
Crime Lord's palace was designed to be the most balanced map for all modes of play and I think that wasn't pretty well executed. The rest of them, most aren't huge friendly so that's something to consider.


ravaged base and rancor pit aren't too bad for huges are they?
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 2:04:22 PM
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I doubt we (community) will ever agree on anything. haha.

i think Smuggler' Base is fine and I think Cloud City has lots of issues....

However, I do think we can agree on a philosophy on how to rotate maps and think that is the more helpful discussion tbh.

General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 3:20:50 PM
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urbanjedi wrote:
General_Grievous wrote:
Crime Lord's palace was designed to be the most balanced map for all modes of play and I think that wasn't pretty well executed. The rest of them, most aren't huge friendly so that's something to consider.


ravaged base and rancor pit aren't too bad for huges are they?


Correct they are pretty good too (but Rancor made it on the dislike for strafe list haha)

Having played Huges a lot here is my analysis of the really problem maps for them:



Maps with impossible or really bad starting areas for huges:

Bespin (which is why I dont much care for this one but I see the appeal for non-huge players)
Offworld Cargo Docks
Mos Eisley
Star Forge!
Security Deck!
Outpost Oasis
Great Library


Maps that are playable but brutal for huges and only forward positioning helps

Tomb of the Acolytes
Offworld Cargo Docks
Asteroid Base
Rhen Var
Death Star
Mos Eisley Residence
Outer Rim Fuelling Station
Swamp Caves
Strike Force Carrier
Boarding Action

There are others that Huges can move around in but generally getting to gambit and not being stuck/blocked by weird doors or small rooms is what gets a map approved from me hahaha.
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 3:22:04 PM
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surf_rider56 wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
General_Grievous wrote:
Crime Lord's palace was designed to be the most balanced map for all modes of play and I think that wasn't pretty well executed. The rest of them, most aren't huge friendly so that's something to consider.


I think your bias may be showing. They all look huge friendly to me.




Of course GG is biased. He Loves his Sep huges!


Truth hahaha, someone has to speak for the droids!
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 4:35:46 PM
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jen'ari wrote:

i think Smuggler' Base is fine and I think Cloud City has lots of issues....


What are the issues with Cloud City?

(Not looking for an argument... Just want to knock it off the list)
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 5:26:46 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
jen'ari wrote:

i think Smuggler' Base is fine and I think Cloud City has lots of issues....


What are the issues with Cloud City?

(Not looking for an argument... Just want to knock it off the list)


Mando's have an extreme advantage on the map is my first issue (Jango resol'nares up and has LoS all the way to the other side once doors are open or thorium charged. for a triple accurate attack round 1.)

Access to the other teams Starting area from two different angles in round 1 by the way.

Strafe should be a large problem on this map as well.
Getting to gambit safely is usually a pain. The right side only has one door on each side of gambit to get through The left side has three consecutive doors on one side and one on the other.

Strafe and Galloping should be powerful on this map as well (open space with a middle and can "merry-go-round back" to safety or even into an access tunnel for Kybuck. Left side has Gambit access in a turbo lift while right side has no such Gambit access (I had a guy play Droopy Mccool in the turbo lift, he just sat him there and waited for me to have to overextend and grabbed the advantage.)

Some people know the map way way better than others due to experience and time playing the map.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 6:31:29 PM
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Awesome. Cloud City has complaints. And there's a complaint at Rhen Var and huges. I moved them.

Any complaints about the other 13? Are there 13 maps with nobody complaining about them? I was thinking we'd be lucky to find 6.
AceAce
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 6:53:23 PM
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I'm ready for some Peaceful City! Oh yeah, anyone got an extra to sell? I had one laminated and it has failed to return from a tournament somewhere.
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 7:09:15 PM
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Location: Southern Illinois
AceAce wrote:
I'm ready for some Peaceful City! Oh yeah, anyone got an extra to sell? I had one laminated and it has failed to return from a tournament somewhere.


Don't think I have a double of that one, but will check. Also, please use its street name. It's more fun that way. Laugh
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, February 10, 2018 6:45:23 AM
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So we have 13 maps that nobody has any complaints against? Way more than I expected.
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, February 10, 2018 7:34:43 AM
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I have never played on 2 of them so I cant say about those two.

but I complain about Commander's Office all the time. Have a game to go coach, will write up later but in the meantime someone else should do the complaining.
atmsalad
Posted: Saturday, February 10, 2018 11:04:26 AM
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I'm not good with map names, if pictures were included or a link to where they all are I could give a much better account! :)
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, February 10, 2018 11:40:22 AM
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The maps are on the rules page over on swmgamers.
http://swmgamers.com/SWM/SWM%20Rules%20Main.html

2014 map list that kezz made has images of all the maps up until then, so all except the newest maps:
http://swmgamers.com/SWM/Rules/MapList_2014.pdf

2017 map list along left side has the current restricted list
http://swmgamers.com/SWM/Rules/MapListRestrictedMay2017.pdf

2016 list has Gangster's Vault, Pirate's Moon SW, and Crime Lord's Palace:
http://swmgamers.com/SWM/Rules/MapListMay2016.pdf

FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, February 10, 2018 11:52:49 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
but I complain about Commander's Office all the time. Have a game to go coach, will write up later but in the meantime someone else should do the complaining.


Most of the time I hear you complain that it's been on the list too much and that people know it too well and that you're tired of it.

But you did make a complaint about the layout at one point. I forget what it was and I'm pretty sure I disagreed, but that's a complaint so I'm moving Commander's Office off the list. I want to see if there are any maps that have zero balance complaints from anyone.

(Incidentally, with the removal of Commander's Office, that means that there ZERO WotC maps that have universal acceptance. We might not find any JC or MM maps with universal acceptance, either, but there are 12 still in the running.)
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