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What is the purpose of the v-sets? Options
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:51:34 PM
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I put this question forth to the design team a few days ago and got some interesting conversation going, and thought it would be worth asking here too. What do you believe the purpose of the V-sets is? If you think the purpose has changed over the years (a common belief), what did you think it started as and how has it changed? What SHOULD the purpose of the v-sets be in your opinion if you disagree with what it is?

For normal game companies obviously the purpose is to sell product. We don’t sell product though, so our purpose has to be a little more complex. Do we just want the most people playing as possible? Are we just trying to keep stats coming out for the sake of new stats, to allow people to come in at any point? Should we focus on making the game as good as it can be primarily for current players (and how do we do that)?

Kind of an open ended question that I think is worth thinking about for anybody interested in the State of the Game.
jen'ari
Posted: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:02:55 PM
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I think the purpose of the V-sets is to asertain what is fun and what people want and design them. I think it should be all about having a fun time playing the game in the way the mechanics have been set up. It should help create open squad design where different styles can be played at a tier 1 level.
It should not hesitate to ban/nerf/cut/counter NPE's that are widely widely accepted NPE's. The V-sets should continue to give accurate portrayals of beloved characters that allows players to play them the way that the present themselves at a certain time or overall in the Star Wars verse. The V-sets should try to establish an order of power where the powerful people in the Star Wars verse are the powerful people in SWM.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:10:00 PM
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Star Wars Minis is a game. We play games to have fun. So the goal of V-sets should be to make the game more fun.

Les suggested in jest (I think!) that the purpose of Vsets was to cause arguments. Since people have different ideas of what constitutes fun, arguments tend to happen as a result. Accurate portrayals vs necessary game mechanics, open meta or not, in-game decisions, my NPE vs your NPE, fun for a newbie or fun for an experienced player, this is so simple it's boring, that is so complex it's a headache, this is so simple it's elegant, that is so intricate it's fascinating. So many opinions on what is fun but there's only one game... hence, arguments. But I do think fun is the goal.
surf_rider56
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 8:02:33 AM
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I believe the V-Sets started innocently as the communities attempt at keeping the game alive and moving forward as WOTC cut us off and sent us adrift without "Official" game backing.

It's probably morphed into our attempts at keeping things reasonably accurate (character-wise) and creating new/interesting ways to play the game. Therein lies the arguments; who considers what fun/accurate/interesting.


jen'ari wrote:
where different styles can be played at a tier 1 level.


I toss this out not because I want to start something, but merely as a point of reference to the above in that if its not fun/accurate/interesting can/should it be played and if its not Tier 1 why is it therefore not worth playing as a piece. Does Everything have to be Tier 1? If so, we'll eventually need a Super Tier 1 and that's an endless argument I Don't want to get into .....


jen'ari wrote:
The V-sets should try to establish an order of power where the powerful people in the Star Wars verse are the powerful people in SWM.


The back end, where the Big SW people should be big I agree with, its the "order of power" where I see arguments of who's deciding what the order of power is that also gets the arguments up and running.

It's a Game. have fun. Play and move along; we don't have to fight too hard over things, just agree to disagree and keep moving forward.
Lord_Ball
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 8:20:47 AM
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surf_rider56 wrote:
It's a Game. have fun. Play and move along; we don't have to fight too hard over things, just agree to disagree and keep moving forward.


THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately in it's quest for competitiveness, I have personally found the V-sets to become less and less fun to play with, but to each their own. Don't get me wrong, the goals are noble enough, it's the execution of those goals that fail me.
jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 8:31:40 AM
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I am a competitive casual player. I usually play tier 1.5 squads
What I mean by different styles being able to be played at tier 1 is that all melee should have a tier 1 squad, swarm, it activate and smash, tanks, etc. The different styles should all be reasonably able to be played at the highest level. As of now there is not a tier1 all melee squad.
I love casual competitive games because the games are more fun to me. People bring in interesting things and I feel it brings out the best in players as well.

The game is mostly played in casual competitive realms now days any way.

As to who is in charge of knowing power level. I think people have a general idea of how it should go. The head of the imperial faction should be sidious and Vader then the next tier is Thrawn and if you include the Imperial Knights, roan feel.

It is hard when people who were not the best of the best completely define a faction. For instance, ganner rhysode, we all love him, but he is in almost every nr squad I have ever seen. General rieekan as well. And Darth Bandon
Etc etc

The faction impacting pieces should be major players imo
surf_rider56
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 9:49:36 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
The faction impacting pieces should be major players imo


I have absolutely no problem with this. It's the seeming necessity that everything created should be Tier 1 or bust that bothers me.

Everything should have a niche it can fill, but everything doesn't have to be a meta gamechanger.
droidadmiral
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 12:52:16 PM
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to cater to the wants and desires of the designers of each individual set.
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 2:41:55 PM
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surf_rider56 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
The faction impacting pieces should be major players imo


I have absolutely no problem with this. It's the seeming necessity that everything created should be Tier 1 or bust that bothers me.

Everything should have a niche it can fill, but everything doesn't have to be a meta gamechanger.


There was another post recently that argued that we've actually gone pretty softly on Tier 1 pieces since set 7 - there have been a couple of mistakes (Commando Droid Officer, Orson Krennic) and lots of good pieces, but a lot of the squad foundations (eg Thrawn, Kelborn, Daala, Talon Kardde, Bastila, Princess Leia, Yobuck, Panaka, Blast Bug Guy) have come from WOTC or early v-sets.
shmi15
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 4:30:28 PM
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I think the v-sets should now be used as a guideline of what to, and not to do. And I think now would be the perfect time to reboot the entire SWM Universe, go back to WOTC only, and start at set 1, and learn from all of our mistakes.

1 Set a year. Focus on scenario and competitive play.

Focus on Online tournaments with flexible rules ( easiest way to get the most players)

And have a "Season" that ends with a tournament twice a year online.

X amount of points for competing in the season, and once you reach X points in a season, you are a designer for the next set. That way, people who play the most and are involved will have some say, but it will also only be the best current players playing.
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 4:42:03 PM
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If we are rebooting then WotC should be left out as well. They left a S#@& show to deal with, no point in going back...
jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 5:02:21 PM
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i dont think we should reboot, I think we should just limit some of the uber power players.

We change the maps out every so often. I think we should change out Faction specific pieces every so often. maybe one from each faction.

One year you "turn off" access to Jaq, Dodonna, San hill, Ozzel, R2-D2, Mando Captain, Lobot

The next year it might be Bastila, Revan (62), Rieekan, Whorm, Mas Amedda, Ganner, Kelborn, Mira of NS

This way you can play things that are countered by a certain piece. The year Bastila is turned off could be the year you play that CE heavy squad you like. Or the year out act control is out could be the year you try a 10 activation swap squad or whatever it might be.

There could be a year with no ysalamiri and no YV war coordinator.


I definitely think sets should go to 45 pieces, 1 set a year. and I do think they should always have some tier 1 pieces in them.
Echo24
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 5:21:22 PM
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So should the focus of future V-Sets be primarily on existing players and not new or returning players? Keep in mind that every layer of complexity (rebooting, rotating, requiring VASSAL for major competitive events, etc.) adds to the barrier to entry for anyone not currently engaged.
shmi15
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 5:34:53 PM
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Echo24 wrote:
So should the focus of future V-Sets be primarily on existing players and not new or returning players? Keep in mind that every layer of complexity (rebooting, rotating, requiring VASSAL for major competitive events, etc.) adds to the barrier to entry for anyone not currently engaged.


On average do we lose or gain players every year?
Echo24
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 5:42:21 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
Echo24 wrote:
So should the focus of future V-Sets be primarily on existing players and not new or returning players? Keep in mind that every layer of complexity (rebooting, rotating, requiring VASSAL for major competitive events, etc.) adds to the barrier to entry for anyone not currently engaged.


On average do we lose or gain players every year?


Probably lose, but I’m not really the person to ask. If you want to base your answer on that, though, (which I think is a valid basis) you would also have to consider the degree of the effects. For example, if on average we gained 10 players per year but lost 20, then made changes to reduce that loss number to 13 but it reduced the gain number to 2, the size of the player base would be worse off despite having better retention (-11 vs -10 players per year). Of course, that isn’t the only factor. There’s no wrong answer to the question.
shmi15
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 5:57:51 PM
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I hear what your saying. But a reset makes the most sense, doing a MTG rotation system now won't work because not many sets flow together really.

I agree with Jen about 1 set a year. Its so hard now to fit 2 sets a year, and hardly ever does a set receive enough attention. I've always been on board with a "Pre realease" tournament, where a tournament is held, and all the piecesd are released, people make squads using them in a competitive way, find out broken or misused pieces, then make some last second adjustments based on peoples feelings on pieces.

1 Set, that flows together, if we start a subfaction (Ghost Crew) release more than just one of them. Which I think recently especially has been very good at doing.

I also think 1 subset a year, with 12 pieces, that all go into some kind of scenario. Scenarios are fun, and I actually think more people would play them if they were out there. Plus, they are awesome for teaching people the game.


We can always have a new format. Just end the "V-Sets" but still keep them as an alternate play form, and start a new one, called something else.
jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:18:14 PM
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Like I said. No compete rotation. Just an on off switch.

I would even group them together.

Make lists of 10 pieces that are turned off.
It would create some fun matches, get Peele posting different things, and prior would have to stay engaged to know the meta, if one can form.


Turning Bastila off would change alot. Keep it fresh while not needing to do much.


I love the idea of an ongoing season by the way.
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:24:04 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
We can always have a new format. Just end the "V-Sets" but still keep them as an alternate play form, and start a new one, called something else.


I feel like it wouldn't help the New Zealand group - we still have big tournaments, even if it's down from its peak in around 2012-2013. But I feel like we'd lose a lot of our group if we cut out a big bunch of stuff.

I think all the toxicity on the boards is a lot more of an issue than the gameplay itself. The v-sets have done a good job at retaining interest for more than 8 years in a dead game, I don't understand why they get so much flak.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:46:40 PM
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People are seriously discussing rotating out characters? I, for one, don't like the idea. Balance would be a lot harder to achieve with counters like Bastila gone at times from the game- not to mention the fact that without certain characters, some factions will no longer have squads powerful enough to win tournaments. And people won't be able to play their favourite squads or builds they wanted to try out if the characters are currently being rotated out. I prefer the relative constancy of the current game, where people only get more characters to play with in each new V-set, never less. Rather than rotating characters out of the game to allow certain builds to be playable, boost the squads and make them more resistant to their counters, and then they can see the light of day.
jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:52:50 PM
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There are only so many game mechanics available. If we start counting them all or resisting them all there will be nothing but counters to game play.

We just recently saw the EV Droid pretty much crush the BX sniper and spotter droids. I don't think counters are the way to go. They are much more lasting then an off/on switch for a group of faction dependables.

You are right that if mandos did not have kelborn they could not be competitive. But, if kelborn is being shut down for a while the set should have something in place to help. Then when kelborn comes back on there might be two options and people have actually played it.

There is just so many things that are not played due to certain pieces dominating is my point

To each his own, but if your game style is lost due to a few pieces being inactive you should probably rethink the game.

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