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corranhorn wrote:SignerJ wrote:
And there is actually a pretty decent theory that Palpatine threw the battle against Mace. According to the RotS book (which is EU canon), Mace and Palpatine were exactly evenly matched in lightsaber combat.
Evenly matched dosen't mean that a duel goes on forever. It means they have about an equal chance of winning. [Instead of botching the discussion, I'll just provide a link to the theory.] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w14Yz0mlCKU7:12 through 9:18 My whole point is that the Windu v.s. Sidious battle should be labeled as a draw.
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SignerJ wrote:
My whole point is that the Windu v.s. Sidious battle should be labeled as a draw.
The theory has no real basis in objective facts, and a fight where one person ends up on the ground at the other one's mercy is no draw.
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Shnh, Cassus! Taking Star Wars arguments a bit too seriously is fun.
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Hmm. Sidious throw that fight, Mace didn't win he was just a simple pawn in Sidious' scheme to convert Anakin. Notice how there doesn't seem to be a clear winner until Anakin walks in the room then Sidious just so happens to loose his lightsaber.  Yeah right will-of-the-force my @$$.  Imagine how it would have looked if Anakin would have walked in a saw Sidious standing over the dead bodies of 4 Jedi Masters.  I'm pretty sure Anakin would've attacked out of revenge.  (  just by his track record)
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Deathwielded wrote:Hmm. Sidious throw that fight, Mace didn't win he was just a simple pawn in Sidious' scheme to convert Anakin. Notice how there doesn't seem to be a clear winner until Anakin walks in the room then Sidious just so happens to loose his lightsaber. Yeah right will-of-the-force my @$$. Imagine how it would have looked if Anakin would have walked in a saw Sidious standing over the dead bodies of 4 Jedi Masters. I'm pretty sure Anakin would've attacked out of revenge. ( just by his track record) haha i agree or we wouldve looked at the dead bodies and said "i never liked them anyways, they were mean." and joined Sidious :p
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FlyingArrow wrote:From the 6 movies, we had the following lightsaber duels and outcomes... Ep 3 Anakin beats Mace who do crap are you kidding? this was no duel we might as well say the clone troopers are excellent duelists since they shot Jedi in the back Ep 4 Obi-Wan vs Anakin = draw Again What?! Obi-wan would have lost, he was tired, out of shape and sick of Vaders stupid attempts to match wits with him. Granted Obi-wan coulda fought longer and gone ghost (giggle) when he was finally defeated. Instead he decided to plague Vader with doubt and rob him of his chance to prove he was the better duelist. "ugh *breath sound* yeah I won, I was so fast that *breath sound* I stuck him down before he could *breath sound* even take a stance" -Vader's attempt to gloat. Read the above bolded words!
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CorranHornsux123 wrote:Deathwielded wrote:Hmm. Sidious throw that fight, Mace didn't win he was just a simple pawn in Sidious' scheme to convert Anakin. Notice how there doesn't seem to be a clear winner until Anakin walks in the room then Sidious just so happens to loose his lightsaber. Yeah right will-of-the-force my @$$. Imagine how it would have looked if Anakin would have walked in a saw Sidious standing over the dead bodies of 4 Jedi Masters. I'm pretty sure Anakin would've attacked out of revenge. ( just by his track record) haha i agree or we wouldve looked at the dead bodies and said "i never liked them anyways, they were mean." and joined Sidious :p Yeah here is how that woulda gone "ugh Anakin hi, umm *Whispers under his breath*bad timing, ugh these were traitorous Jedi, yeah they were your comrades and you've known them for the last 10 years, but I told you the darkside was stronger! Come on over!"
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Ultimately I think Dooku AKA, Darth Tyranus was the best duelist in the starwars movies. Here is why: first he defeated Obi-wan who was the only Jedi in 1000 years to beat a sith (sorry Yoda, but Obi-wan beat 2 sith and you beat none  ) and Dooku took him out rather quickly. Then Anakin AKA the Chosen One had his chance... And it cost him an arm (anyone else thought that looked so fake?) Then here comes Grandmaster Yoda who over the last 900 YEARS mastered all forms of lightsaber combat. They fought to a draw with Dooku continuing on his merry way (hey, Jack he was leavin anyway) Flash forward 3 years Obi-wan and Anakin decide to team up against him (remember Dooku is in his eighties. Those punks) Obi-wan almost takes him out, but Dooku knocks him out instead. Then Anakin fights on and eventually because of a failed use of Dun Moch (it backfired) Anakin chops off both of Dooku's hands (double the fall indead!  ) Come on! Dooku could have beat Anakin if his goal wasn't to convert him instead. (the book version sheds light on Dooku's idea of what Sidous' plan was. The poor fool  )
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What about the deaths of Kit Fisto, Saesee Tinn, and Agen Kolar? Sidious whopped them.
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SignerJ wrote:corranhorn wrote:SignerJ wrote:
And there is actually a pretty decent theory that Palpatine threw the battle against Mace. According to the RotS book (which is EU canon), Mace and Palpatine were exactly evenly matched in lightsaber combat.
Evenly matched dosen't mean that a duel goes on forever. It means they have about an equal chance of winning. [Instead of botching the discussion, I'll just provide a link to the theory.] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w14Yz0mlCKU7:12 through 9:18 My whole point is that the Windu v.s. Sidious battle should be labeled as a draw. That's an intersting video and arguement therein. However, I find it ironic that it is predicated on Sidious being nigh omniscient. He either knows he can manhandle Mace which cannot be true if source material is to be believed, or is counting on Anakin to rescue him from a loss to Mace he knows is forthcoming. This from a guy who apparently foresaw Anakin's betrayal of Mace yet failed to see that betrayal turned against him on the second Death Star. Palpatine was neither all-knowing nor all-seeing as some allege. Bottom line, he gambled, hoping Anakin's interference would pay off in one way or another.
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Teller wrote:What about the deaths of Kit Fisto, Saesee Tinn, and Agen Kolar? Sidious whopped them. Good call!
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saber1 wrote:SignerJ wrote:corranhorn wrote:SignerJ wrote:
And there is actually a pretty decent theory that Palpatine threw the battle against Mace. According to the RotS book (which is EU canon), Mace and Palpatine were exactly evenly matched in lightsaber combat.
Evenly matched dosen't mean that a duel goes on forever. It means they have about an equal chance of winning. That's an intersting video and arguement therein. However, I find it ironic that it is predicated on Sidious being nigh omniscient. He either knows he can manhandle Mace which cannot be true if source material is to be believed, or is counting on Anakin to rescue him from a loss to Mace he knows is forthcoming. This from a guy who apparently foresaw Anakin's betrayal of Mace yet failed to see that betrayal turned against him on the second Death Star. Palpatine was neither all-knowing nor all-seeing as some allege. Bottom line, he gambled, hoping Anakin's interference would pay off in one way or another. Yes it was a interesting video (I have seen some of his stuff before and now I want to see his other videos describing the other styles  ) Sidious wasn't all knowing, though he was a brilliant tactician and a master political manipulator on a scale rarely even fathomed. I do think he threw the fight though not without weighing all the risks and probably having several contingency plans. (just in case) Yes he gambled and not on a sure thing, but on a reasonably probable outcome that Sidious has been working toward for over a decade. (Anakin becoming his apprentice) Sidious would never have never revealed himself to Anakin without know what could have happened. And hey it worked out for him in the end now didn't it? As for Sidious' death at Endor you must remember that that's 20+ years later after he has lived in the lap of luxury and reveling in the Sith's victory over the Jedi. Yes I believe he got complacent and sloppy and obviously he didn't keep up his saber skills or else he would just flipped out of Vaders hand (singular) and killed them both. That being said we must remember that Sidious did have a plan to cheat death.
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That plan was far from foolproof, though-and why force yourself to use it? It's always an option, you're simply adding risk and gaining nothing by dying intentionally to use it.
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It's possible that Palpatine craved power over everything else. He would rather die than not have absolute power. Therefore, he needed Anakin to take and maintain power. This means that his "risk" with Mace, if on purpose, was a gamble and one that is consistent with his number 1 goal.
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corranhorn wrote:That plan was far from foolproof, though-and why force yourself to use it? It's always an option, you're simply adding risk and gaining nothing by dying intentionally to use it. Combat is risk, you don't take on 4 Jedi Masters without taking some heavy risks. Why risk his life by throwing the match? Cuz he thought it was worth it. of course no plan is foolproof, no argument there. I'm not sure of the timeline but when did Sidious set up his clone chambers? I sure they probably wouldn't be ready for use during his and Mace's battle though... Honestly though, I like the books explanation that there was a loop of power feeding Mace with Sidious' power, so they were pretty easily matched. In the long haul Mace probably would have won, since he had more experience, is younger and he isn't likely going to run out of Force power before Sidious. Sidious while unbelievably strong, fast and skilled. However he just couldn't have had all the battle experience that Mace would have had, especially in the long drawn out fights department. I do believe that Sidious did know that Anakin was coming and waited to throw the fight until Anakin arrived. Hey, risk losing to Mace and gaining little if you win, or throw the fight and take a chance that Anakin would join you. hmmm. 
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Deathwielded wrote:corranhorn wrote:That plan was far from foolproof, though-and why force yourself to use it? It's always an option, you're simply adding risk and gaining nothing by dying intentionally to use it. Combat is risk, you don't take on 4 Jedi Masters without taking some heavy risks. Why risk his life by throwing the match? Cuz he thought it was worth it. of course no plan is foolproof, no argument there. I'm not sure of the timeline but when did Sidious set up his clone chambers? I sure they probably wouldn't be ready for use during his and Mace's battle though... ...Huh? I'm talking about Palpy's death in Ep6.
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corranhorn wrote:Deathwielded wrote:corranhorn wrote:That plan was far from foolproof, though-and why force yourself to use it? It's always an option, you're simply adding risk and gaining nothing by dying intentionally to use it. Combat is risk, you don't take on 4 Jedi Masters without taking some heavy risks. Why risk his life by throwing the match? Cuz he thought it was worth it. of course no plan is foolproof, no argument there. I'm not sure of the timeline but when did Sidious set up his clone chambers? I sure they probably wouldn't be ready for use during his and Mace's battle though... ...Huh? I'm talking about Palpy's death in Ep6. Whoops! misunderstood  yeah, trying out a technique that involves you dying first isn't exactly at the top of my to do list. And I'm sure the same goes for Palps
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You should start posting the Clone Wars/EU duels.
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CorranHornsux123 wrote:[quote=Deathwielded]Hmm. Sidious throw that fight, Mace didn't win he was just a simple pawn in Sidious' scheme to convert Anakin. Notice how there doesn't seem to be a clear winner until Anakin walks in the room then Sidious just so happens to loose his lightsaber. Yeah right will-of-the-force my @$$. Imagine how it would have looked if Anakin would have walked in a saw Sidious standing over the dead bodies of 4 Jedi Masters. I'm pretty sure Anakin would've attacked out of revenge. ( just by his track record) Really? Mace Windu was considered to be one of the best swordsmen in recent history of the Jedi Order. Windu was also the ONLY master of Vaapad style...
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