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Daala (et al) errata - the final word Options
juice man
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2014 6:15:48 AM
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swinefeld wrote:

*The V-Set team is currently looking at options to reprint the cards so players can obtain up-to-date cards to use.
TimmerB123
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2014 9:00:13 AM
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fingersandteeth wrote:

Designing pieces that are overly strong and toning them down till they "fit" is a poor strategy when adequate playtesting is hard to come by.


Well said indeed. I have heard it repeated again and again (from the same 1 or 2 people) that the "best" way to design is to make a piece overly strong and then pull it back if need be.

This theory may be true for games from professional companies with plenty of playtesting data to analyze. What is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt is that is that theory DOES NOT APPLY TO OUR GAME NOW. With the player base size we have, the resources, and the severe lack of playtesting . . . our only way to not let this happen again is to use better discretion as designers, and not design overpowered pieces. We need to err on the side of caution.

I'll be the first to admit that Daala and the slaver slipped through the cracks. There were too many power 10+ pieces at once, and not enough time to playtest them all.

Hopefully lesson learned.
SignerJ
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2014 12:26:21 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:

Designing pieces that are overly strong and toning them down till they "fit" is a poor strategy when adequate playtesting is hard to come by.


Well said indeed. I have heard it repeated again and again (from the same 1 or 2 people) that the "best" way to design is to make a piece overly strong and then pull it back if need be.


It is things like this that makes me wonder if the designers could sometimes learn something from the custom makers on this site. I don't think that any person who regularly makes custom stats has ever thought that this is a good way to design pieces, probably because playtesting for custom stats is even rarer than for the Vsets.
TheHutts
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2014 1:52:28 PM
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Daala is very tricky because she's a power piece - trying to provide an alternative to Thrawn. She interacts with so many existing pieces, and there are so many potential builds and ways to break her - the Imperials are the kings of cheap tech, and forgotten pieces like Admiral Piett, the Imperial Officer, and the Repulsor Sled have come back into play. And it's actually cool that they're back in play.

Most customs aren't anywhere near as ambitious. I think it's insulting to suggest that the design team should be learning from custom makers. She just needed a lot of playtesting/a more conservative initial design, that's all.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2014 2:00:50 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
Daala is very tricky because she's a power piece - trying to provide an alternative to Thrawn. She interacts with so many existing pieces, and there are so many potential builds and ways to break her - the Imperials are the kings of cheap tech, and forgotten pieces like Admiral Piett, the Imperial Officer, and the Repulsor Sled have come back into play. And it's actually cool that they're back in play.

Most customs aren't anywhere near as ambitious. I think it's insulting to suggest that the design team should be learning from custom makers. She just needed a lot of playtesting/a more conservative initial design, that's all.



wow... insulting to learn form custom makers? that's a little harsh, as the designers themselves have said they have used abilities and ideas from the custom makers.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2014 3:22:09 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
Most customs aren't anywhere near as ambitious. I think it's insulting to suggest that the design team should be learning from custom makers. She just needed a lot of playtesting/a more conservative initial design, that's all.


I agree with the playtesting part. The other thing is instead of relying on one/two pieces to break the strangle hold thrawn has they could release a group of characters to do that. Like a new tarkin along with a sidious and a new arica or something. design all three to go together and all benefit one another in a way that thrawn is not needed, or it is to expensive to fit him in.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2014 4:02:02 PM
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That's pretty much what they tried with the Triumvirate.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2014 4:22:06 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
That's pretty much what they tried with the Triumvirate.



yeah but the triumvirate pieces suck horribly and don't bring to the table what thrawn alone does to a squad. Thrawn brings init control, a movement breaker, and a damage boost all rolled up for 32. the triumvirate gives u some init control, but a worse form, a worse form of a damage boost, and no true movement, I guess you could run a non unique then allow to attack so maybe it is a small one. but no where near what thrawn does by himself. the pieces have to be good and have to offer enough to make thrawn less attractive, maybe a sidious that grants arica intuition as a movement breaker, or a damage boost threw camaraderie. these are all hypothetical of course, but it has to be another whole squad type and the triumvirate was no where near good enough for that to begin with.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2014 4:52:07 PM
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Just pointing out that what you suggested has been attempted.

The Triumvirate pieces are actually pretty good pieces on their own, and priced about right. It's just that they have Rival with Thrawn/Pellaeon, which are both Power 11 pieces, so they aren't playable. I don't know where TheHutts put them in the mini of the day ratings, but most of the Triumvirate belongs in the 7-9/10 range.

With Daala's arrival, there was a real debate about whether it was better to go with the Triumvirate or Pellaeon (couldn't take both). That was because Flim paired so well with the Zygerrian and because the only anti-Lancer defense available was to bring in the Covert Ops Clone Trooper through Disra. After the arrival of Buzz Droids and LINs, and after the Zygerrian errata, the debate was settled pretty quickly and the Triumvirate started collecting dust again.

But since they aren't bad, here's a crazy thought. What if a second version of each Triumvirate piece were created? And each one was a Power 11 piece but expensive? Expensive enough that of course Daala loses Prideful so she probably isn't in the squad (but might be just for Charging Fire). But also, you would run one expensive power 11 piece alongside the other two, cheaper Triumvirate pieces because you waste too much space if you bring more than one expensive one. I don't think the Triumvirate are popular enough characters to warrant 2nd versions right now, so that's more a thought experiment than anything else. Mechanically, it might work, though.

But probably better to just go with another Tarkin version with Rival: Thrawn/Pellaeon. If Thrawn/Pellaeon can't be there anyway, might be worth bringing along the Triumvirate.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2014 5:59:04 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Just pointing out that what you suggested has been attempted.

The Triumvirate pieces are actually pretty good pieces on their own, and priced about right. It's just that they have Rival with Thrawn/Pellaeon, which are both Power 11 pieces, so they aren't playable. I don't know where TheHutts put them in the mini of the day ratings, but most of the Triumvirate belongs in the 7-9/10 range.

With Daala's arrival, there was a real debate about whether it was better to go with the Triumvirate or Pellaeon (couldn't take both). That was because Flim paired so well with the Zygerrian and because the only anti-Lancer defense available was to bring in the Covert Ops Clone Trooper through Disra. After the arrival of Buzz Droids and LINs, and after the Zygerrian errata, the debate was settled pretty quickly and the Triumvirate started collecting dust again.

But since they aren't bad, here's a crazy thought. What if a second version of each Triumvirate piece were created? And each one was a Power 11 piece but expensive? Expensive enough that of course Daala loses Prideful so she probably isn't in the squad (but might be just for Charging Fire). But also, you would run one expensive power 11 piece alongside the other two, cheaper Triumvirate pieces because you waste too much space if you bring more than one expensive one. I don't think the Triumvirate are popular enough characters to warrant 2nd versions right now, so that's more a thought experiment than anything else. Mechanically, it might work, though.

But probably better to just go with another Tarkin version with Rival: Thrawn/Pellaeon. If Thrawn/Pellaeon can't be there anyway, might be worth bringing along the Triumvirate.



Disra sucks, 25 points for 30 life and a commander effect that he has to have line of sight to an enemy to be effective is worthless, bribery is good, but really not good enough to warrant his usage when for 2 more points i can run lobot. Flim is my favorite of the three because at least his commander effect is useful by itself, but for one point less i can already give a non-unique an attack. and the clone guy is even worse. with stuff like weir out, he is just about worthless. he fails as an attacker and his commander effect is kind of meh compared to some others.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2014 6:29:07 PM
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For Disra, just the Bribery and raw stats is probably worth 15 points or so. He would require a Bodyguard if you need his CE, but his CE could be key (and worth his cost points) in some matchups. I would say he's the weakest of the three, but if you absolutely have to have your CEs active for you squad to work, he's. Bringing in a clone can help in some circumstances, but hard to factor it into the cost.

Flim was awesome when Slave Driver was an ability. If another killer "Replaces Attacks" ability comes along he could be very powerful again, or if there's a commander you want to cannon. As is, +2 init is worth a point if you have it to spare, so you'd take him over an Imperial Officer.

Tierce's problem is that he's a fighter/commander. You don't want to lose the CE, but you have to take out to fight or he isn't worth it. He's like a 17 point attacker and a 9 point commander. Have to accept the risk if you want to bring him.

But, ultimately, none of them are playable because you don't drop two 11/10 pieces to make room for any 7/10 pieces.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2014 6:50:56 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
For Disra, just the Bribery and raw stats is probably worth 15 points or so. He would require a Bodyguard if you need his CE, but his CE could be key (and worth his cost points) in some matchups. I would say he's the weakest of the three, but if you absolutely have to have your CEs active for you squad to work, he's. Bringing in a clone can help in some circumstances, but hard to factor it into the cost.

Flim was awesome when Slave Driver was an ability. If another killer "Replaces Attacks" ability comes along he could be very powerful again, or if there's a commander you want to cannon. As is, +2 init is worth a point if you have it to spare, so you'd take him over an Imperial Officer.

Tierce's problem is that he's a fighter/commander. You don't want to lose the CE, but you have to take out to fight or he isn't worth it. He's like a 17 point attacker and a 9 point commander. Have to accept the risk if you want to bring him.

But, ultimately, none of them are playable because you don't drop two 11/10 pieces to make room for any 7/10 pieces.



I agree with that you would never use them or the two others, but I don't agree that they are 7/10 and so do their ranks none of them is a 7 highest is a 6.29. and that is my point, that no one would ever take them over the other 2.... ever. I am saying that their should be enough between 3-4 new pieces that you could potentially take them over the others. be it rapport for some older piece and camaraderie for that same piece and then 2-3 other pieces that all go together to make it work.

FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2014 7:06:14 PM
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When Daala came out and Thrawn wasn't an option, I seriously considered using them since Thrawn was excluded anyway. Turns out it's not worth giving up Pellaeon for any of them either, but without Rival, they might have been able to find a niche. Which is pretty much the definition of a 7/10 piece. Possibly in some Tier 1 build, but only if it fits exactly with the rest of the squad. I think the ratings largely reflect their utter unplayability due to Rival.

We'll just have to disagree, but it's an irrelevant conversation anyway.


(I just checked out of curiosity. Disra is the only one I had rated and I gave him a 5. I'm going to leave it there.)
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, August 18, 2017 5:20:39 AM
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i love my old posts LOL
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