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WI 2015 Regional Saturday, June 27 Options
harryg
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 10:13:35 AM
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atmsalad wrote:
General_Grievous wrote:
Nice! Great job Atmsalad. A Very similar squad stole me the championship in the north. It's pretty versatile and tough. Nice to see such a wide spread of factions and I believe the game has never been more varied for factions.

Thank you! I think this build definitely takes this squad up a notch and allows it to keep up with squads such as double swap, naboo and durge on speeder.

Although I agree that the game has never been more varied for every faction in general, I don't think that every faction is equipped with a tier 1 option. Currently, I think that the only factions that have tier 1 options are Separatists, Imperials and republic.

Rebels- Luke and Leia, Spec Force Wilderness and Pilots?
Vong- Charging Vong(deceptively tier 2), Nomb Bombs and Praetorite Vong Scouts/Aggressive Negotiations
Sith- Lord Krayt, Revan with kaan and Caedus?
New Rebuplic- Super Stealth troopers, Professor Lukes Art Class and New Han?
Old Republic- Bastilla and friends
Mandos- Vindicated squads (either with NCO or Trevors(Tints) build that weeks played)
Fringe- Talon (which may be pushed to tier 1 with Aves from v-set 10)

Although these factions have many variations and different squad builds, they just cant keep up right now...


New Han is definitely tier 2 IMO, he really can't compete without greater mobile from the twilek, and only one of the three squads that used him incorporated that. He also needs a movement breaker from Ganner and ranged defense from Wedge.

On a different note, it was a really fun day, and I had a blast playing minis. It was cool to meet a lot of you in person as well.
Sthlrd2
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 10:42:18 AM
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New Han is better than T2. Maybe T1.5 but better than 2.
DarthMaim
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 10:54:24 AM
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atmsalad wrote:
General_Grievous wrote:
Nice! Great job Atmsalad. A Very similar squad stole me the championship in the north. It's pretty versatile and tough. Nice to see such a wide spread of factions and I believe the game has never been more varied for factions.

Thank you! I think this build definitely takes this squad up a notch and allows it to keep up with squads such as double swap, naboo and durge on speeder.

Although I agree that the game has never been more varied for every faction in general, I don't think that every faction is equipped with a tier 1 option. Currently, I think that the only factions that have tier 1 options are Separatists, Imperials and republic.

Rebels- Luke and Leia, Spec Force Wilderness and Pilots?
Vong- Charging Vong(deceptively tier 2), Nomb Bombs and Praetorite Vong Scouts/Aggressive Negotiations
Sith- Lord Krayt, Revan with kaan and Caedus?
New Rebuplic- Super Stealth troopers, Professor Lukes Art Class and New Han?
Old Republic- Bastilla and friends
Mandos- Vindicated squads (either with NCO or Trevors(Tints) build that weeks played)
Fringe- Talon (which may be pushed to tier 1 with Aves from v-set 10)

Although these factions have many variations and different squad builds, they just cant keep up right now...



Can you please elaborate on what "deceptively tier 2" means? Thanks :)
UrbanShmi
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 11:02:18 AM
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I'm not positive that ranking squads in "tiers" is that helpful at this point in the game anyway. There are so many squads and types, it's nearly impossible to have an answer to all of them, so which squads/factions can do well at any particular event comes down to the very specific meta there and match-ups. There are a few factions that seem to be able to handle a variety of match-ups a little better, but calling every other faction "tier 2"--suggesting that they can not compete at the top levels--is unrealistic, in my opinion.

As far as the new Han--I have been working on builds with this piece for about four months now. I finally settled on one I liked and played it at Wisconsin.

My squad:

--Lobbin' a Legend--5th place, 2015 Wisconsin Regional--
45 Han Solo, Corellian Legend
32 Chewbacca, Galactic Hero
29 Ganner Rhysode
23 General Wedge Antilles
22 R2-D2 and C-3PO, Galactic Heroes
18 Twi'lek Black Sun Vigo
10 Jagged Fel
9 General Dodonna
3 Mouse Droid
9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3

(200pts. 12 activations)

Now, this squad has two accurate shooters, solid movement breaking, GMA, and a TON of bodyguard to soak up damage. The TBSV and Jagged Fel can both benefit from Twin from R2PO, which helped in some match-ups. I finished 4-1 with 9 points, good enough for fifth place, and didn't give up a 1-point loss all day. I had a lot of fun with it, and I will play it for a "fun" type event in the future, but I won't bring it to a top-level competitive event again. It isn't flexible enough, doesn't have an answer for super stealth (fortunately, neither of the RC squads I faced had it), and even with the two accurate shooters, timing to get the opportunist off can be a real struggle in certain match-ups (even with Dodonna, since I often reverted to activating two once engaged).

Now, I'm not saying this is the best Han squad out there, or that I played it perfectly, but it probably makes the best use of synergies in NR. But after playing it, although I hesitate to label anything "tier 2," I generally agree that Han, Corellian Legend isn't quite good enough to play with some of the mass activation/huge movement squads in the factions atm mentioned.
DarthMaim
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 11:14:59 AM
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UrbanShmi wrote:
I'm not positive that ranking squads in "tiers" is that helpful at this point in the game anyway. There are so many squads and types, it's nearly impossible to have an answer to all of them, so which squads/factions can do well at any particular event comes down to the very specific meta there and match-ups. There are a few factions that seem to be able to handle a variety of match-ups a little better, but calling every other faction "tier 2"--suggesting that they can not compete at the top levels--is unrealistic, in my opinion.

As far as the new Han--I have been working on builds with this piece for about four months now. I finally settled on one I liked and played it at Wisconsin.

My squad:

--Lobbin' a Legend--5th place, 2015 Wisconsin Regional--
45 Han Solo, Corellian Legend
32 Chewbacca, Galactic Hero
29 Ganner Rhysode
23 General Wedge Antilles
22 R2-D2 and C-3PO, Galactic Heroes
18 Twi'lek Black Sun Vigo
10 Jagged Fel
9 General Dodonna
3 Mouse Droid
9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3

(200pts. 12 activations)

Now, this squad has two accurate shooters, solid movement breaking, GMA, and a TON of bodyguard to soak up damage. The TBSV and Jagged Fel can both benefit from Twin from R2PO, which helped in some match-ups. I finished 4-1 with 9 points, good enough for fifth place, and didn't give up a 1-point loss all day. I had a lot of fun with it, and I will play it for a "fun" type event in the future, but I won't bring it to a top-level competitive event again. It isn't flexible enough, doesn't have an answer for super stealth (fortunately, neither of the RC squads I faced had it), and even with the two accurate shooters, timing to get the opportunist off can be a real struggle in certain match-ups (even with Dodonna, since I often reverted to activating two once engaged).

Now, I'm not saying this is the best Han squad out there, or that I played it perfectly, but it probably makes the best use of synergies in NR. But after playing it, although I hesitate to label anything "tier 2," I generally agree that Han, Corellian Legend isn't quite good enough to play with some of the mass activation/huge movement squads in the factions atm mentioned.




+1
donnyrides
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 11:25:21 AM
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I'm so sad I missed it. I was going to try a vong squad. With seeing the other squads from the tournament how do you think this would have held up.

**Asteroid base map

--Hits from the Vong--
30 Supreme Overlord Quorreal
29 Domain Shai Subaltern
28 Zenoc Quah
18 Praetorite Vong Priest
17 Domain Lah Subaltern
15 Yammosk War Coordinator
13 Yun-Ne'Shel Priest
40 Domain Lah Warrior x4
10 Zonoma Sekot Scout x2

Preferred Reinforcements: Vs non-specialized squads
(S. O. Quorreal) 11 Advance Agent, Officer
(S. O. Quorreal) 10 Domain Lah Warrior

Or

Preferred Reinforcements: Vs Swarms
(S. O. Quorreal) 20 Yuuzhan Vong Hunter on Quednak

Or

Preferred Reinforcements: Vs heavy melee
(S. O. Quorreal) 19 Warrior Caste Subcommander
Mando
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 11:26:07 AM
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I ran a updated variant of the old Skybuck squad's ran in the WotC days. Basically you just replace Dash with Mira. Spryguy1981 deserves the credit for suggesting replacing Dash with Mira. I was originally going to run Dash, but then Matt changed my mind after pointing out some of the things Mira can do that is a upgrade over Dash (better attack, door control and rigged detonators)

--The Skybuck Mirage--
51 Yoda on Kybuck
47 General Skywalker
28 Mira of Nar Shaddaa
27 Lobot
23 Captain Panaka
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
4 Gran Raider
3 Rodian Brute

(200pts. 9 activations)

I originally tried guessing the meta and thus i brought this squad. Well I don't think anyone even ran the Boba and Blue squad or any Talon squads all day. Would have liked to have shown the Boba and Blue squad a thing or to. Smile

Made some bad mistakes on the day that cost me wins, but overall I think this squad performed well despite some bad matchups. I played it a bit to aggresviely in my last match vs Mark who was running Republic Commando's and once I lost Mira, the game was pretty much over. I had a bad matchup vs Jonny who was running a swap squad with AniStap. I did manage to get a win vs The Thon Song squad from a couple years ago that did well in Gencon, so I was happy with that win. Overall, I think Mira has replaced Dash from now on in the Skybuck squads. Fun tournament! Congrats on Etienne for wining it all! Tim (Chargers) did a great job of hosting it and getting everything ready to go for the hectic day, so major props to him for doing that and also judging.
atmsalad
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 1:58:11 PM
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DarthMaim wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
Vong- Charging Vong(deceptively tier 2)

Can you please elaborate on what "deceptively tier 2" means? Thanks :)

At first glance it appears to be able to keep up with the tier 1 squads and beats a lot of tier two option, but upon closer inspection it just isn't able to perform at the same level tier 1 squads have to. I'm sorry about that, first time I have used that term, I hope I explained it well enough.
TheHutts
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 2:07:29 PM
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I think Charging Vong is a really good squad, it just has tough matchups with the specific squads that have been successful this season - a couple of Durge passes will wreck it, Naboo deathshots is very tough, and it can't keep up with Imperial double swap.
TheHutts
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 2:12:06 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
Although I agree that the game has never been more varied for every faction in general, I don't think that every faction is equipped with a tier 1 option. Currently, I think that the only factions that have tier 1 options are Separatists, Imperials and republic.


I feel like there's something very good for Rebels and New Republic somewhere - Dodonna (so they can keep up with activations, but aren't limited to moving just one), Disruptive, and Evade are all very good in the current meta. If tanks or Bastila aren't very popular, I even like Jason's idea from SHNN about 2010 Rebels:

--Smug Commandos (2010 Gencon Champion Squad)--
27 Han Solo, Smuggler
27 Lobot
27 Luke Skywalker, Rebel Commando
20 Princess Leia
32 Elite Rebel Commando x2
16 General Crix Madine
14 General Rieekan
12 Gha Nachkt
9 General Dodonna
8 Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Spirit (or Juno Eclipse?)
8 Mouse Droid x4
(200pts. 15 activations)
DarthMaim
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 2:46:11 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
I think Charging Vong is a really good squad, it just has tough matchups with the specific squads that have been successful this season - a couple of Durge passes will wreck it, Naboo deathshots is very tough, and it can't keep up with Imperial double swap.



You're overlooking The Vong's access to "Defensive Reflex " which is brought in against Durge and stops him dead in his tracks. Also, Crab Armor saves at 7's and 2's (Tsavong Lah), his strafe runs don't kill the nasty tough one's that hide and then storm 16 with twin attack, to do 40 dmg, 60 with "Scarfication". Trust me, the Vong player is not going to have them right in a line to strafe them all like a conga line :)
atmsalad
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 3:59:10 PM
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DarthMaim wrote:
You're overlooking The Vong's access to "Defensive Reflex " which is brought in against Durge and stops him dead in his tracks. Also, Crab Armor saves at 7's and 2's (Tsavong Lah), his strafe runs don't kill the nasty tough one's that hide and then storm 16 with twin attack, to do 40 dmg, 60 with "Scarification". Trust me, the Vong player is not going to have them right in a line to strafe them all like a conga line :)


Here are some of the issues with the piece you are referring to. 1. It cannot receive commander effects, so it wont be receiving the evade from zenoc quah. They are susceptible to simply being accurately shot or furious assaulted by cad bane bounty hunter who generally accompanies Durge in seps. 2. You have to attack it, and with 24 squares of movement, it is generally pretty easy to avoid pieces like this, such as self destruct.

Also, If you are making room for a Vong reinforcement piece it means that you do not have as much room for warriors in the main squad. Sure you can bring them in, but it usually means at least 1 less warrior than you normally would have.
DarthMaim
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 4:15:57 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
You're overlooking The Vong's access to "Defensive Reflex " which is brought in against Durge and stops him dead in his tracks. Also, Crab Armor saves at 7's and 2's (Tsavong Lah), his strafe runs don't kill the nasty tough one's that hide and then storm 16 with twin attack, to do 40 dmg, 60 with "Scarification". Trust me, the Vong player is not going to have them right in a line to strafe them all like a conga line :)


Here are some of the issues with the piece you are referring to. 1. It cannot receive commander effects, so it wont be receiving the evade from zenoc quah. They are susceptible to simply being accurately shot or furious assaulted by cad bane bounty hunter who generally accompanies Durge in seps. 2. You have to attack it, and with 24 squares of movement, it is generally pretty easy to avoid pieces like this, such as self destruct.

Also, If you are making room for a Vong reinforcement piece it means that you do not have as much room for warriors in the main squad. Sure you can bring them in, but it usually means at least 1 less warrior than you normally would have.


First of all, not all the Seps builds have Cad. Secondly, ok, cool, so Cad storms in with Furious assault, and kills "Tso'asu". All of the key devastating 10 pt nasty minis, stay alive, unscathed, with evade saves of 7 or slightly damaged with crab armor saves of 7's! Then, 2 of them storm in crushing him, as they make their "Hostage Shield saves of 7. DED Cad :)
atmsalad
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 4:16:25 PM
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Sthlrd2 wrote:
New Han is better than T2. Maybe T1.5 but better than 2.
The piece is definitely very good, but I do not believe there is a tier 1 option for him yet. A single piece does not make a squad tier 1, but tier 1 squads can be full of tier 2 pieces. #daala

I tend to rate pieces by the squads they have the best synergy with in most cases. That doesn't make the raxus prime trooper a 9, but it makes it better than it was. Just like not having a tier 1 squad to pair Han with does not take him from a 10 to a 3, but currently his potential is rather limited comparatively.
AceAce
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 4:19:13 PM
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Etienne, no love for me!? I talked about your squad and had it boxed at DarkDracul's the night before you left.
Mando
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 4:19:16 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
You're overlooking The Vong's access to "Defensive Reflex " which is brought in against Durge and stops him dead in his tracks. Also, Crab Armor saves at 7's and 2's (Tsavong Lah), his strafe runs don't kill the nasty tough one's that hide and then storm 16 with twin attack, to do 40 dmg, 60 with "Scarification". Trust me, the Vong player is not going to have them right in a line to strafe them all like a conga line :)


Here are some of the issues with the piece you are referring to. 1. It cannot receive commander effects, so it wont be receiving the evade from zenoc quah. They are susceptible to simply being accurately shot or furious assaulted by cad bane bounty hunter who generally accompanies Durge in seps. 2. You have to attack it, and with 24 squares of movement, it is generally pretty easy to avoid pieces like this, such as self destruct.

Also, If you are making room for a Vong reinforcement piece it means that you do not have as much room for warriors in the main squad. Sure you can bring them in, but it usually means at least 1 less warrior than you normally would have.


You can bring in a Tso'asu with Quorreal's reinforcements and it will get Aggressive Negotiations, making it hard to kill even for Cad Bane. So it isn't as easy as simply shooting it. I have run the Tso'asu via Qourreals reinforcements vs a Lancer + Durge on Lancer squad and it effectively provided a deterant for the opponent from strafing over my squad.
DarthMaim
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 4:20:34 PM
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Mando wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
You're overlooking The Vong's access to "Defensive Reflex " which is brought in against Durge and stops him dead in his tracks. Also, Crab Armor saves at 7's and 2's (Tsavong Lah), his strafe runs don't kill the nasty tough one's that hide and then storm 16 with twin attack, to do 40 dmg, 60 with "Scarification". Trust me, the Vong player is not going to have them right in a line to strafe them all like a conga line :)


Here are some of the issues with the piece you are referring to. 1. It cannot receive commander effects, so it wont be receiving the evade from zenoc quah. They are susceptible to simply being accurately shot or furious assaulted by cad bane bounty hunter who generally accompanies Durge in seps. 2. You have to attack it, and with 24 squares of movement, it is generally pretty easy to avoid pieces like this, such as self destruct.

Also, If you are making room for a Vong reinforcement piece it means that you do not have as much room for warriors in the main squad. Sure you can bring them in, but it usually means at least 1 less warrior than you normally would have.


You can bring in a Tso'asu with Quorreal's reinforcements and it will get Aggressive Negotiations, making it hard to kill even for Cad Bane. So it isn't as easy as simply shooting it. I have run the Tso'asu via Qourreals reinforcements vs a Lancer + Durge on Lancer squad and it effectively provided a deterant for the opponent from strafing over my squad.



+1
TheHutts
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 4:27:29 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
I tend to rate pieces by the squads they have the best synergy with in most cases. That doesn't make the raxus prime trooper a 9, but it makes it better than it was.


This is kind of beside the point, but I don't get why a Raxus Prime Trooper would be less than a 9. It's 5 points, it has a +5 attack, it can shoot, it has Wall Climber, and has access to lots of amazing synergies and commander effects. Even pre-Daala it's kind of solid just as a swap piece, even if you wouldn't normally take it over an Amanin, and I don't know what else it could have for 5 points without being completely broken.

I think we just have different rating ideologies, but I think Daala's enough to make a lot of previously janky pieces Tier 1 or very close to it. Especially as the key boosts are largely immune to disruptive and ABM, since Prideful can't be stopped and charging fire ignores ABM and disruptive in a lot of situations.

Maybe it's just that on Rolling Mini of the Day I'm covering all sorts of terrible pieces, so anything that's even usable in a vaguely competitive squad is pretty much at least a 7....
DarthMaim
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 4:31:00 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
You're overlooking The Vong's access to "Defensive Reflex " which is brought in against Durge and stops him dead in his tracks. Also, Crab Armor saves at 7's and 2's (Tsavong Lah), his strafe runs don't kill the nasty tough one's that hide and then storm 16 with twin attack, to do 40 dmg, 60 with "Scarification". Trust me, the Vong player is not going to have them right in a line to strafe them all like a conga line :)


Here are some of the issues with the piece you are referring to. 1. It cannot receive commander effects, so it wont be receiving the evade from zenoc quah. They are susceptible to simply being accurately shot or furious assaulted by cad bane bounty hunter who generally accompanies Durge in seps. 2. You have to attack it, and with 24 squares of movement, it is generally pretty easy to avoid pieces like this, such as self destruct.

Also, If you are making room for a Vong reinforcement piece it means that you do not have as much room for warriors in the main squad. Sure you can bring them in, but it usually means at least 1 less warrior than you normally would have.



First of all, not all the Seps builds have Cad. Secondly, possible "Aggressive Negotiations" on Tso'asu, as Mando stated. Third, ok, cool, so Cad storms in with Furious assault, and kills "Tso'asu". All of the key devestating 10 pt nasty minis, stay alive, unscathed, with evade saves of 7 or slightly damaged with crab armor saves of 7's! Then, 2 of them storm in crushing him, as they make their "Hostage Shield saves of 7. DED Cad :)
atmsalad
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 4:33:29 PM
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DarthMaim wrote:
First of all, not all the Seps builds have Cad. Secondly, ok, cool, so Cad storms in with Furious assault, and kills "Tso'asu". All of the key devestating 10 pt nasty minis, stay alive, unscathed, with evade saves of 7 or slightly damaged with crab armor saves of 7's! Then, 2 of them storm in crushing him, as they make their "Hostage Shield saves of 7. DED Cad :)

Sacrificing cad to kill the door control and the tso'asu is a great trade. It is an uphill battle in general for the vong... Out activated, lack of door control, losing init, blocked by mice walls, no range attackers, CE dependant(fall apart against disruptive), and low atk without scarification or cunning(10 is low). I am just not optimistic...
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