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Ladies and Gentlemen, Gathering Forces! Options
obiwan1knight
Posted: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 9:30:13 PM
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Just finished quite an intense game with TheUltrastar. If I forgot anything please let me know.

He played Rebels with the popular Luke from LEGENDS, Han from VoW, Chewie from LEGENDS, Princess Leia, Yoda of Dagoba and support.

I played Imperials with Vader, Palps GE, The Inquisitor, Vader's Apprentice Unleashed, Lobot, and some uggs and mice

I won map and picked Anchorhead.
So the first two rounds were really slow because I was terrified of the Little Green Gnome with Force defense, which would have really messed up my very force reliant squad. At the end of round 2 I was able to use Face Your Destiny on Yoda, hoping to draw him closer get rid of him quickly.
Well, the Green Guy did come, but to my dismay stunned Vader, who up to that point was preparing to clobber him to death. And then came Chewie, who went next to Yoda. So basically, since all of my force powers are now useless, and my main beat is stunned I have no choice but to slowly chip away at Yoda and bodyguard chewie with Vader's Apprentice and the Inquisitor (Who rolled two 1's, and didn't do anything else the entire game except die)

Han gets two good shots at the Inquisitor one that misses, and one from Leia's cannon. Luke is still, Biding his time out back.

At some point, we all end up in a clump of sorts, with Luke Charging up and demolishing the Inquisitor whose pitiful attempt at blocking the attacks were fruitless. Then Emperor saw Luke's overconfidence as a weakness, and after letting Han do 40 damage to Vader (And then stunning him again) Used Sith Battle Manipulation to move Han, Luke and Yoda all next to each other (Yoda was down to 40) and then move Chewie (who was down to 20) away from the group so he couldn't use Guardian or his death shot. The Emperor also moved Vader's Apprentice just out of range of Yoda's Force Defense range and zapped Luke, Yoda, and Han for 60 each.

Loyal C-3PO and R2D2 ran up to try and draw my fire for the next round, but to no avail.

The next round, The Emperor went, Zapped Han and Luke, Han dies. Luke only has 20 left. Vader (Who somehow got activated again? MAybe I missed something) does nothing. Vader's apprentice however runs up and slices Luke, giving me a 2 point win.


jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:51:18 AM
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For vader to have been activated that last round Han could use Power blast or Chewie could use Bowcaster.


Looks like it could have been a 3 pt win if there was enough time for one more round. Well played by obiwan, its a tough match up for sure.

Imperial Palps is being used a lot.
obiwan1knight
Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2015 8:01:33 AM
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The moment I saw the new Palps, I had the idea for this squad (Which I was disappointed to discover that multiple people had exactly the same idea before me. ) His SBM paired with Vader's Apprentice is epic.
SithBot
Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2015 8:08:54 AM
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Well I started it officially (palps with unleashed Apprentice), but was the only one to lose.

So far we have seen three Palp/Apprentice armies being played (but different variations) and three Rebel god squad armies played (the exact same army).

Cant wait to mix it up with my next game.

Obiwan1knight when can you play again?
obiwan1knight
Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2015 1:22:29 PM
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I could probably play tonight at 10 pm eastern, if that works for you.
SithBot
Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2015 3:11:46 PM
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I think these would be sweet prize support

http://toybox.io9.com/play-arts-kai-will-turn-boba-fett-and-the-stormtrooper-1694068674

Just type in play arts kai boba fett and go to images for better looking ones. they also have a sweet Darth Vader as well. the stormtrooper is cool too.
Mando
Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 6:09:54 AM
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been trying to get a hold of DarthRattlehead and sharron to try and set up our games, but haven't gotten a response back from them. Hopefully this week i'll get my games in with Darth O and Shmi15.
obiwan1knight
Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:37:01 AM
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To anyone I have yet to play: I am free tonight from 9 pm on. (Possibly earlier) If you can play, BM me.
spryguy1981
Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:44:48 AM
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Got my game in with Amadeus on Friday night but have just now gotten around to posting the results.

My squad
Neo-Crusaders
62 Te'Anila
50 Legends Ordo
31 GF Cassus
28 Kelborn
8 R7
6 Mando Demo
9 Mouse x3
6 Uggie Demo x2

Amadeus' squad
Legends Rahm 56
Legends Galen 46
Legends Luke 38
Leia-RC 19
General Rieekan 14
R2 with Sensor 9
Juno Eclipse 8
6 Mouse x2
3 Uggie Demo

Map was Theed. I lost map roll so Cassus took Rebel Hunter.

Round 1 was all positioning as neither of us took gambit.

Round 2 was more positioning but then Luke charged in to put 60 on Ordo. Unfortunately for Luke none of my shooters had gone so Cassus shot first and put 30 on him after Luke failed his reflect. He then used Battle Tactics to swap with Canderous who tripled and only got 20 through. Te'Anila based Luke and killed him. Kelborn moved to where if I won init I could take down Leia

Round 3 I won init and Kelborn reso'ed into range of Leia and then he based her and doubled with Gauntlet Knife killing her. Galen pulled him in and then doubled putting Kelborn at 50. I ran Cassus into the room and shot Galen who missed his evade and then swapped for Te'Anila who based Juno and Galen and took out Juno. Kelborn killed a mouse to try and takeaway evade for Ordo. Ordo put 30 on Rahm. Rahm used Critical Target to put 40 on Te after armor saves.

Round 4 he wins init and used Galen to double twin Te. Drops him to 60 after armor saves and missed attacks. Te used deadeye and puts 80 on Galen leaving him with 10 left. Kelborn attacks Galen and kills him with a shot and then kills the uggie. Kota attacks Te dropping him to 40. Ordo hits 3 attacks Rahm evades all.

Round 5 I win init and use Deadeye on Rahm to put him down to 30. Rahm attacks Te and drops him to 10HP. Ordo shoots, misses 2, and Rahm takes 20 down to 10. He killed Kelborn on an AoO with a Crit as I attempted to take out the other mouse and remove evade during the round before. I use Cassus to shoot and he misses both and Battle Tactic swaps for Te to get him away from Kota should I lose init.

Round 6 I win init, kill Rahm with Te, R2 with Cassus, and Rieekan with Ordo.

Final Score 241-68 in my favor.
SithBot
Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:11:35 PM
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Cassuss Fett is doing well. Grabbing Hunter is a cool mechanic.


obiwan1knight Bloomail sent :)
SithBot
Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:19:20 PM
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Just played Obiwan1Knight

I ran "Masters of Evil"

Darth Sidious *LEGENDS*
Darth vader *GATHERING FORCES*
Darth Malgus *LEGENDS*
r7
2 mice
2 ugnaughts

He ran Old Republic

Nomi (WotC)
Arca *GATHERING FORCES*
Ulic
Tott *VoW*
Cay (WotC)
Lobot
filler including ugnaughts and Rodian Brutes.

The first thing I would like to say is that obi-wan consistently rolled under 10 the entire game and did not win a single init roll. Vassal really had it out for him tonight.

We played on my map Smuggler's Base.

He set up on right, I set up on left.

1st round
I moved pieces as far as I can, and got Sidious deep into Gambit. (had opened door on left with R7). He opened the top right door with Lobot before setting up close to the upper door coming from the right.

2nd Round
I win init.
I intuition Sidious up, and than Leaping assault. I kill Arca with Sith Rage.
He takes all his pieces turn attacking Sidious, At the end of the round he has 60 HP.

3rd Round
I win init and leaping assault and kill Tott.
He uses Cay and Ulic to try and end Sidious. Cay hit with both and brought him down to 20. than Ulic moved and LA but missed both rolling 4's.
I move Malgus out and sith rage 2 and ambush Nomi dropping 80 (she failed block save rolling a 2).
Nomi smacks Malgus but he has FA armor and made some of his saves. Vader leaping Assaults in and kills Nomi, a Rodian, and an Ugnaught.

4th Round
I win init and Sidious kills Cay, fails his save, rerolls, makes his save, Ulic kills Sidious. Malgus Force Repulses Ulic. Vader Leaping Assaults Ulic dropping 60, missed one. He made both djem so saves, but missed on both attacks.

At that point Ulic down to 40 and me having more than half Malgus and full Vader he called the game.

3pt win for me.

Tough match up for that squad and the rolls did not help even a little bit.

Sidious/Vader is really really strong, probably Top Tier in Legacy format and it is done the old fashioned Sith way of powerful Sith Lords doing their thing.
obiwan1knight
Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:21:16 PM
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So I just finished a game with Sithbot, and it has finally prompted me to write what I have been thinking for some time. I just want to put it out there, first, that I love what the LEGENDS and subsequent sets' designers have created. I have great respect for what is being done, and I realize how difficult it can be to create and playtest custom pieces. With that being said, do not take the following analysis to be complaining or ranting, but rather a participant's honest experience and advice.

From what I have gathered, one goal of the new sets was to diversify the types of squads that can be played apart from the typical powerhouse options. What I want to talk about is how restricting so many of the custom set's characters are. Many of the new characters look awesome until you realize that they have rival for this guy, or unrivaled, or really specific SA's that almost force you to use the characters in a certain way (such as with multiple specific people), or else their application in a squad is minimal.

I can understand the motives for most of the abilities. Unrivaled on Vader and Palpatine is to discourage the use of Thrawn. Mentor is partly flavorful and partly to not be overpowered (I may be wrong about that).

Another realm of difficulties arise in the Old Republic faction. For example, Nomi BC is extremely constricting because to get the most use out of her you are required to only have force users in your squad, and while there are quite a few good force users to choose from, not have good low costing force users besides the Jedi Engineer and the Youngling is a big detriment to squad building. I already touched on Mentor on Kao Cen Darach; I'll just say I think he would be perfect yet for his Mentor ability.

Another issue I see is very specific SA's such as:

Strike Force Leader (Character's whose name contains Nomi Sunrider, Tott Doneeta, Cay Qel-Droma or Ulic Qel-Droma gains Jedi Strike Force)

Which is all well and good, but again, limits Arca Jeth's application in anything but a squad with these characters.
The OR isn't the only faction with these problems, but it's where it is most clearly illustrated.

I would like to point out that there is a certain lack of diversity in the squads contestants are playing. Recently there have been 3 Rebel God Squads (All the same) and 3 Palps and Vader's Apprentice squads (Slight variations). Maybe I am wrong here, but at any rate, OR and some other factions seem to be overlooked, and I believe it is because of all the restrictions.

Meetra Surik, Redeemed Jedi, is a perfect example of what I think more pieces should look like. I look at her stats and can see loads of possibilities. Malgus, Darth Sidious, Anakin HWNF, the Sith Emperor are also great examples of great pieces with many possibilities.
I am certainly not against having one piece specifically boosting another, however I think it has been done way too much now.

In conclusion, the tournament (I think) would benefit greatly from less restricting characters, and since this is a custom set, I may boldly suggest that in the future (depending how far this goes) changes could be made to certain characters. But for now, all that I ask for is some awareness of these issues I have spoken about, and some friendly conversation about them.

Forgive me for taking up so much space on this thread. I would like to talk about it, so maybe someone could start a new thread?

P.S. I do I actually have another slightly unrelated issue. The OR characters don't have enough force points. They both don't start with enough and don't have enough renewal power to sustain their very force-power-centric defense.


jen'ari
Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:54:10 PM
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Thank you for your post Obiwan1knight.

It will come in very handy when deciding ways to go forward and deciding on when to make sub factions within factions and when to keep it open for building. We are struggling with that in a few ideas right now actually.


I will go ahead and claim the Old Republic problem. I have selfishly been trying to finish the Nomi squad. It has been a while in coming and will be finished after two more pieces, but maybe we can hold out a few sets to accommodate opening up the Old Republic.


Mando
Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 5:44:35 AM
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I've noticed also the lack of force points for the OR and also the Republic in the Legends Set and its subsequent sets. While i see that some pieces have enough force to be effective, some just don't have enough force points to do their cool stuff a couple times in a match. Why would you start pieces at 1 fp when their cool force power requires 3 and you only have renewal 1 for example? I've talked about this with Bronson before about the lack of force points, and I can definitely see what the problem is that people are having. To me it seems some of the designers of the sets are trying to not create supposedly overly powerful pieces and thus add things like Mentor and Rival or abilities that restrict squad builds. For example, the Ghost crew pieces. Cool pieces, except that you have basically taken away their whole faction from being played with them. There aren't a whole lot of Fringe CE's that can be played with them, so in the end, I just can't justify making a squad with them especially when most of the good fringe pieces the custom sets have made also have restrictions like Hired Gun. Why was it decided he Ghost Crew couldn't interact with the rest of the Rebels? This makes no sense to me. I agree with Obiwanknight that I would also like to see less restrictive pieces in future sets or removing restrictive abilities from current ones. The V-sets did a good job of making pieces that you could make tons of squads with. I'd like for the customs sets to give similar options when it comes to squad builds. The OR guy with Mentor is cool, and if it wasn't for that ability some really neat squads could be made. I made a squad with him that I'd like to use with the restriction Mentor gives, but it was uncomfortable when i was making the squad to remember that I could only have 1 force user besides him in a faction that is predominately made up of Force Users.
Amadeus
Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 9:46:10 AM
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I've previously participated in discussions about the whole restricted squad building trend, I'll paste over one of the responses I got on the forums.

"Most of us, don't care for the idea of everyone working with everyone. Which is why a lot of what we do has restrictions to encourage players to use pieces with certain pieces."

(from the discussion thread about the new Juno Eclipse and a proposed change to make the Rogue Shadow Crew like GHOST crew so you can only play Galen, Rahm, and Juno with each other and fringe pieces
http://jawajuice.boards.net/thread/170/juno-eclipse-rebels )


Deaths_Baine
Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 12:28:57 PM
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yeah the way our playgroup likes to play the game is completely different from what the mainstream game is like. in all honesty if you want to be able to put any piece with any piece, then play standard minis. I find the idea that there are only a couple of squads that are playable laughable. we can not control what people want to play anymore then the v-set designers can. If people are excited to run the legends version of the God-Squad then so be it, there is something fun about dropping luke, han, leia, yoda, Chewbacca and being able to do well. same goes for imperials, you can run vader, palps, tarkin, vader, palps, starkiller, and do very well.... but you can also run mandalorians and do well, as spry showed, you can also win with new republic spry showed that as well, against oh imagine that the rebel squad that has been ran a lot. pego also won with new republic, and it was a completely different squad then sprys. someone else won with a classified squad lol, interesting there. republic with senate commandos won. and sith just won.

so as of now these factions have all won games:
New Republic
Sith
Mandos
Republic
Imperial
Rebel
and one classified squad that I don't know lol.

I don't see the problem with the limitations we have placed on anything......
theultrastar
Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 4:19:05 PM
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Hey guys, I've been out of the world a bit (been doing work on my house now that spring is here) and so I haven't been able to keep up with comments/feedback from the tournament. First of all, thank you for the feedback. Second of all I would like to address some of the issues that have been brought up.

One of the things we like to do is run squads that are thematic. For example the Ghost Crew. Could we have made them to where they interacted with other Rebel characters? Yes. But things we have to look at is Zeb vs the Chewie we made having to compete with each other for playing time. Then we have to look at interactions like Leia being able to pop characters. Things like that. Having restrictions opens up designing and prevents broken combos that create NPE's from happening (and if a combo does come up, it's a lot easier to fix).

The Ghost Crew is a blast to run, I ran it frequently during playtesting, and while there were games I lost, I had a great time, each time I ran them.

I'm sure everyone understands the reason for Unrivaled. One of the things we wanted to do was break the dependance of Thrawn for Imps. We wanted to create a Vader/Palps/Tarkin squad. Which the biggest restriction there is not being able to use Thrawn with them. Thrawn really restricts what you can do in Imps, so Unrivaled is awesome.

I understand that people enjoy the unlimited possibilities that you can have with WoTC squad building. But at some point you have to start restricting things. Some games do it by "phasing pieces out". At a certain point it becomes too big of a headache to try and design around all the overpowered crap that WoTC left us with. We banned a few of these pieces, and others we decided to work around, and create "options" like Unrivaled in Imps.

I think Obiwan1knight commented on that he has seen 3 God Squads all exactly the same. I want to point out, and say that while it has been ran a few times (mostly because I made it, and I run it a lot) it's not the only competitive rebel squad. There is a mean Galen squad that I believe Mando made (correct me if I'm wrong), and there is the Ghost Crew (which while it's not T1, it is insanely fun to run) and even the original WOTC Smug Commandos is probably still viable. Our restrictions haven't done anything to limit the amount of competitive squads. They have just limited the amount of possible combos and interactions that we as designers have to worry about.
pegolego
Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:13:46 PM
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Old Republic and Separatists (MULTIPLE times lol) won in the first leg of the event as well, to add to Deaths_Baine's list above. Not sure if all fringe made much impact as of yet.
jen'ari
Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:35:44 PM
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I love the input guys. Our system can and has and will make changes to pieces that need them. For instacne Exar Kun in Old Republic has been discussed as getting some changes to make him stronger. Agen Kolar and a few others as well. Those changes will probably occur after the end of this league :)

We can definitely look into adding some force points into Republic pieces, what pieces exactly do you think need more FP?

As far as armies go..

OR has won with different Revan builds, a Tott/Thon build, and a Legends Nomi build

Sith has won with Emperor Bane build, different Sidious builds, and other builds

Mandos have won with tons of different builds, pretty open faction

Republic has won with old school WotC builds, and different Council member builds

Separatists is very open and won lots of different ways

Rebels has the God squad, a Galen Marek squad, Ghost Crew, and old school levitate/pop squad

Imperials have Vader/Palps/Tarkin, Vader/Palps/apprentice, Thrawn swap with clone and Cad Bane still very viable

New Republic is very open and has won in probably the most different ways

All-Fringe has only one viable squad, but to make all fringe is difficult and a long process to create versatility.


I love that as designers we strive to make things work like they ought to in the verse. The face of Rebels should be Luke and Han.
The face of Imperials should most definitely be Vader/Palpatine
The face of New Republic should be Skywalkers, Solo's, and various others

This is what we try to accomplish, it can seem to limit squad building, and it does, but it does so with the fact in and that you can make a powerful character or powerful Force power or Special Ability and not worry about it ruining the whole faction. It is easy to balance one army build, it is hard to balance a whole faction.

Malak with Dark Presence can be very brutal if he was openly allowed in a Sidious squad or a Sith Emperor Squad.

Battlemaster with Nomi and friends can be very hard to deal with as well.
obiwan1knight
Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 7:47:18 PM
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I see I definitely made a mistake when I commented about the diversity of squads, (As I said in my first post, I might have been wrong about it) I haven't closely followed each winning and losing squad, so what I said was clearly unsupported.

Anyway, your playgroup made the customs, you made the event, and you have done a lot of work for both. If this is how you guys like to play miniatures, then you can absolutely keep the restrictions. I don't particularly care for them, but I am playing your game, not mine.

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