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juice man
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 4:25:17 AM
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Darth_Jim wrote:
My personal NPE's:

1. Vong. This even causes a problem in my marriage because my wife's favorite color is purple.
To your wife, listen you must.BigGrin

Darth_Jim wrote:
2.Any squad that features non-uniques as the featured attackers.
Like those really weak Peace Brigade Soldiers?Flapper

Darth_Jim wrote:
3. The MTB.
YES!!!!!!ThumbsUp

Darth_Jim wrote:
I offer no logic for my hatred of numbers 1 and 3, only my personal expression of distaste. I am not endorsing any bannings or such. In fact, if the Vong meta squads move to unique-centered squads, it might actually be good for the game. The church we used to go to had a choir director who had a skinny head like an MTB. I didn't like him either.

Number 2...featured non-uniques...I consider to be a serious bummer to our game. Star Wars is about heroes and villains, not lemmings.
Hmmm, where would the Empire/Rebellion be without hoards of lemmings?
shmi15
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 5:11:33 AM
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juice man wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
My personal NPE's:

1. Vong. This even causes a problem in my marriage because my wife's favorite color is purple.
To your wife, listen you must.BigGrin

Darth_Jim wrote:
2.Any squad that features non-uniques as the featured attackers.
Like those really weak Peace Brigade Soldiers?Flapper

Darth_Jim wrote:
3. The MTB.
YES!!!!!!ThumbsUp

Darth_Jim wrote:
I offer no logic for my hatred of numbers 1 and 3, only my personal expression of distaste. I am not endorsing any bannings or such. In fact, if the Vong meta squads move to unique-centered squads, it might actually be good for the game. The church we used to go to had a choir director who had a skinny head like an MTB. I didn't like him either.

Number 2...featured non-uniques...I consider to be a serious bummer to our game. Star Wars is about heroes and villains, not lemmings.
Hmmm, where would the Empire/Rebellion be without hoards of lemmings?




1. More people on the anti Vong wagon... Yet, Vong are still a focus of designers... Interesting.

2. I assume the Empire wouldn't be the Empire, because Emperor Palpatine switched it from a Republic... To his Empire. Not the lemmings your defending Flapper And yes, the troopers ultimately did most of the grunt work, BUT it was all through THE FORCE that anything was actually accomplished... Not shooting on Naboo, not a fight on Hoth or Endor. It was decided on the Death Star, between Vader and Luke, in front of the Emperor. The way Star Wars was intended. Its kind of like GoT. The non uniques are all the wars of the 7 kingdoms, and while they shape the world, when "The Great War Comes" You let the big boys step up, Uniques.

3. I agree with the MTB. I have never understood that piece, and refuse to run because its stupid. I think I have ran it like 3 times in my life. And not one of those times did I enjoy it.

juice man
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 6:10:47 AM
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1. To be clear - I love playing the Vong. (except for that measly 10 damage, darn WotC)

2. Lemmings or uniques - it's all good.

EDIT: However, the lemmings should not be unloading 40, 50 or more damage per shot.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 6:14:54 AM
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Darth_Jim wrote:
our goal should be to make all factions playable.


Agreed!

I think currently all factions are playable, and that is a good thing!



Now playable vs win GenCon . . . that's a different story.




I think some factions are just loaded to the gills with serious top tier options (Republic, Imperial, Rebel), some factions have some really good stuff but for whatever reason they haven't seen as much play this year or last year (Separatist, New Republic), some factions have some solid squads, it's just a matter of if they are played and who plays them (Sith, Vong), and some are playable but still need some help (OR, Mandos and Fringe).


In general, as a designer I try and give only theme and fun (tier 2) options to the top factions. The middle factions I tend to try and focus on tech needs and subfactions, and the bottom factions I try and play Robin Hood. Steal from the rich and give to the poor.

Booster Terrik is a good example of that philosophy played out. He's in what I would consider a struggling "faction" (all Fringe"). He's designed to play in all Fringe better than with other factions, and he counters several strong tactics in other factions.

We looked at the squad with the best record at the GenCon champs last year. --Les Femmes Fatales--

33 Emperor Palpatine on Throne
32 Thrawn (Mitth'raw'nuruodo)
31 Morrigan Corde
28 Mira of Nar Shaddaa
27 Lobot
16 Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
11 Admiral Ozzel
8 Mas Amedda
8 R7 Astromech Droid
3 Mouse Droid
3 Rodian Brute

(200pts. 11 activations)

(Yes - it had the best overall record, even through the playoffs. Less losses than the eventual champion)

It just happened to have been piloted by me.



So we actively countered it with soft and hard counters. Swap discouragement, Pellaeon Swap nerf, opportunist nerf.


Yes - I actively tried to counter my own squad. As a player I look for the broken combos and exploit them. As a designer I try to find those gaps and seal them.




Now I was 1 of 4 designers on any set I worked on - not everyone always agreed with that direction. Virtually all designers want all factions playable, but the approach for some (like myself) is primary, and for others it's a secondary or tertiary concern.

Booster stayed mostly intact - so I deserve full blame if you hate him or he ends up broken.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 7:40:33 AM
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I understand what you are saying tim, but the thing you shouldn't do is make a furious assaulting 31 defense, accurate shooting triple attacking, beskargam wearing flying quick drawing piece with 130 hit points.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:12:40 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
I understand what you are saying tim, but the thing you shouldn't do is make a furious assaulting 31 defense, accurate shooting triple attacking, beskargam wearing flying quick drawing piece with 130 hit points.


I didn't.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:13:55 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
I understand what you are saying tim, but the thing you (designers) shouldn't do is make a furious assaulting 31 defense, accurate shooting triple attacking, beskargam wearing flying quick drawing piece with 130 hit points.


I didn't.



I mean v-set designers, not you in particular. bad wording there.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:19:26 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
I understand what you are saying tim, but the thing you (designers) shouldn't do is make a furious assaulting 31 defense, accurate shooting triple attacking, beskargam wearing flying quick drawing piece with 130 hit points.


I didn't.



I mean v-set designers, not you in particular. bad wording there.



Vset designers all design in different ways. Some designers love to push the envelope, intentionally trying to shake up the meta. Others seek balance in the Force.

The former are less and less these days. But you still see some of the vestiges of that legacy
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:21:17 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
I understand what you are saying tim, but the thing you (designers) shouldn't do is make a furious assaulting 31 defense, accurate shooting triple attacking, beskargam wearing flying quick drawing piece with 130 hit points.


I didn't.



I mean v-set designers, not you in particular. bad wording there.



Vset designers all design in different ways. Some designers love to push the envelope, intentionally trying to shake up the meta. Others seek balance in the Force.

The former are less and less these days. But you still see some of the vestiges of that legacy



i'm fine with pushing the envelope if it's done for something specific like booster. or a hard stance on something like booming voice, etc. but this guy just seems to be a fanboygasm. Flapper
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:25:37 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
I understand what you are saying tim, but the thing you (designers) shouldn't do is make a furious assaulting 31 defense, accurate shooting triple attacking, beskargam wearing flying quick drawing piece with 130 hit points.


I didn't.



I mean v-set designers, not you in particular. bad wording there.



Vset designers all design in different ways. Some designers love to push the envelope, intentionally trying to shake up the meta. Others seek balance in the Force.

The former are less and less these days. But you still see some of the vestiges of that legacy



i'm fine with pushing the envelope if it's done for something specific like booster. or a hard stance on something like booming voice, etc. but this guy just seems to be a fanboygasm. Flapper


I'm not sure Booster pushes the envelope. He brings some new stuff but I don't expect him to shake up the meta, honestly. He's meant to be more fun, and give some options to play some characters that are pretty bad and needed boosting to be played. I estimate he'll be about a power 7.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:28:46 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
I understand what you are saying tim, but the thing you (designers) shouldn't do is make a furious assaulting 31 defense, accurate shooting triple attacking, beskargam wearing flying quick drawing piece with 130 hit points.


I didn't.



I mean v-set designers, not you in particular. bad wording there.



Vset designers all design in different ways. Some designers love to push the envelope, intentionally trying to shake up the meta. Others seek balance in the Force.

The former are less and less these days. But you still see some of the vestiges of that legacy



i'm fine with pushing the envelope if it's done for something specific like booster. or a hard stance on something like booming voice, etc. but this guy just seems to be a fanboygasm. Flapper


I'm not sure Booster pushes the envelope. He brings some new stuff but I don't expect him to shake up the meta, honestly. He's meant to be more fun, and give some options to play some characters that are pretty bad and needed boosting to be played. I estimate he'll be about a power 7.


I mean he pushed the envelope against a certain squad type and has a very specific function for the game.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:37:01 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
I understand what you are saying tim, but the thing you (designers) shouldn't do is make a furious assaulting 31 defense, accurate shooting triple attacking, beskargam wearing flying quick drawing piece with 130 hit points.


I didn't.



I mean v-set designers, not you in particular. bad wording there.



Vset designers all design in different ways. Some designers love to push the envelope, intentionally trying to shake up the meta. Others seek balance in the Force.

The former are less and less these days. But you still see some of the vestiges of that legacy



i'm fine with pushing the envelope if it's done for something specific like booster. or a hard stance on something like booming voice, etc. but this guy just seems to be a fanboygasm. Flapper


I'm not sure Booster pushes the envelope. He brings some new stuff but I don't expect him to shake up the meta, honestly. He's meant to be more fun, and give some options to play some characters that are pretty bad and needed boosting to be played. I estimate he'll be about a power 7.


I mean he pushed the envelope against a certain squad type and has a very specific function for the game.



Gotcha.
CorellianComedian
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 9:11:58 AM
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Fanboyism or not... it's Jango Fett... one of precious few in Star Wars who actually deserves a hype-piece.

Anyways, he enables the existence of a low-act Mando squad that can't be instantly out-tanked or overwhelmed.
Flavor? Check.
Helping an unlucky faction? Check.
Good against swarms? Check.
Discourages high-activation? Check.
Discourages strafe? Check.

Looking at other conversations, that seems like design gold right there.

Why is nobody concerned about Poe Dameron? He's half the cost, and can drop an entire squad of 60-HP pieces in one turn.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 9:22:22 AM
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CorellianComedian wrote:
Fanboyism or not... it's Jango Fett... one of precious few in Star Wars who actually deserves a hype-piece.

Anyways, he enables the existence of a low-act Mando squad that can't be instantly out-tanked or overwhelmed.
Flavor? Check.
Helping an unlucky faction? Check.
Good against swarms? Check.
Discourages high-activation? Check.
Discourages strafe? Check.

Looking at other conversations, that seems like design gold right there.

Why is nobody concerned about Poe Dameron? He's half the cost, and can drop an entire squad of 60-HP pieces in one turn.




interesting... 31 defense is flavorful? i'm not even sure furious assault is flavorful. mandos already have a squad like that with mando the vindicated. the problem is that he was designed to be everything... can he tank yes, can he deal good damage yes, can he kill multiple pieces-check. i'd be fine with this piece if they dropped solidarity and defensive stance and just gave him like a 21 defense. or dropped armor etc. he is just way to much wrapped into one piece.

heck he is literally a vehicle and the person that you can jump out of the vehicle and get all at the same time lol.
DarthMaim
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 10:46:57 AM
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I would be ok with him if you dropped accurate shot and loner. Jango has never had accurate. It was always his son Boba. Why all of the sudden is he an accurate shooter?????? Even the Epic Jango doesn't have accurate shot. I would even be ok with Sniper. Doesn't make sense Confused
atmsalad
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 11:05:31 AM
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I'm all for helping hurting factions and having good representations of movie characters. I just think we need to do it by comparison with like costed characters and without creating a barrier for future design.

At the moment Jango in Mando's isn't an issue because high and large Mando's suck for tier 1 options. Jango does not help that though, he's just going to make it difficult for Mando's to get good tech and pieces in general because now we have to keep one eye on this Juggernaut...
jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 12:29:32 PM
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Han Solo, Galactic Hero here, Dash I need you to come with me on a mission to kill Jango Fett, since we both have evade we will be fine, besides, I can disrupt any outside supprt

but wait.. I will need a standard 13 to hit him and you will need a 17 to hit him. I have 90 life and you have 60, he has 130 and beskar'gam 6 which will soak up 20 damage from every 3 shots we hit him with.
We have Evade, but he can move 12 to get adjacent and will always hit us.
he has a 17 attack and will need a 2 to hit you and a 2 to hit me....

hmm. well we better call Chewbacca for some support.
DarthMaim
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 12:33:06 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
I'm all for helping hurting factions and having good representations of movie characters. I just think we need to do it by comparison with like costed characters and without creating a barrier for future design.

At the moment Jango in Mando's isn't an issue because high and large Mando's suck for tier 1 options. Jango does not help that though, he's just going to make it difficult for Mando's to get good tech and pieces in general because now we have to keep one eye on this Juggernaut...



I respectfully disagree with you here. Mando's absolutely DO NOT SUCK for Tier 1 options. With access to a cheap tempo control counter, initiative counters, an elite scrub killer, a team movement breaker, cloaked door control/lowering defense, a cloaked commander that can potentially allow 3 activations in 1 phase + addition to iniative roll, a beefy good dmg disruptive piece with 2 great commander effects, and cheap cloaked shooters that can potentially blast 4 times. Mandos are a "Force" to reckon with! Do they have to win GenCon every year, for you to see the "light"?
DarthMaim
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 12:34:53 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
Han Solo, Galactic Hero here, Dash I need you to come with me on a mission to kill Jango Fett, since we both have evade we will be fine, besides, I can disrupt any outside supprt

but wait.. I will need a standard 13 to hit him and you will need a 17 to hit him. I have 90 life and you have 60, he has 130 and beskar'gam 6 which will soak up 20 damage from every 3 shots we hit him with.
We have Evade, but he can move 12 to get adjacent and will always hit us.
he has a 17 attack and will need a 2 to hit you and a 2 to hit me....

hmm. well we better call Chewbacca for some support.



LOL LOL . I got to give that one to you Jen, that was funny!
atmsalad
Posted: Thursday, June 29, 2017 1:18:02 PM
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DarthMaim wrote:
I respectfully disagree with you here. Mando's absolutely DO NOT SUCK for Tier 1 options. With access to a cheap tempo control counter, initiative counters, an elite scrub killer, a team movement breaker, cloaked door control/lowering defense, a cloaked commander that can potentially allow 3 activations in 1 phase + addition to iniative roll, a beefy good dmg disruptive piece with 2 great commander effects, and cheap cloaked shooters that can potentially blast 4 times. Mandos are a "Force" to reckon with! Do they have to win GenCon every year, for you to see the "light"?


So your talking about 1 squad for the most part, or special renditions of it. There are to many counters to consider that squad tier 1. As Tim said, 3 years is a long time ago...

I could argue and list the counters, but your mind wouldn't be changed so I see it as a pointless endeaver. In my opinion mandos remain a bottom 3 faction that needs more help than most.
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