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gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Friday, August 16, 2019 3:27:10 AM
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DarthMaim wrote:
Lord Krayt 114 pts
Commander Effect
You can choose to activate only 1 character in each phase, if this character has line of sight to an enemy character. (This includes Droid and Savage characters.)

Change in bold. I would propose we change the cost of Lord Krayt to somewhere in the 70's to 80's, as this change, obviously changes his effectiveness to almost blowing the dust off his mini at the bottom of our mini pile Wink


If there is a change to act control in general, it would preferably only affect San Hill, Ozzel and Dodonna. Krayt, Ric Olie, etc do not need any change as they are not broken.
DarthMaim
Posted: Friday, August 16, 2019 3:48:46 AM
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
Lord Krayt 114 pts
Commander Effect
You can choose to activate only 1 character in each phase, if this character has line of sight to an enemy character. (This includes Droid and Savage characters.)

Change in bold. I would propose we change the cost of Lord Krayt to somewhere in the 70's to 80's, as this change, obviously changes his effectiveness to almost blowing the dust off his mini at the bottom of our mini pile Wink


If there is a change to act control in general, it would preferably only affect San Hill, Ozzel and Dodonna. Krayt, Ric Olie, etc do not need any change as they are not broken.




Ric Olie with R2-A6


Commander Effect : You can choose to activate only 1 character in the phase that this character activates.



There is a huge difference in the wording of the commander effect ( in bold ), which is why I did not include Mr Olie in the proposed changes to the above 4 commanders!
CorellianComedian
Posted: Friday, August 16, 2019 6:21:28 AM
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Coming back after being busy for several months:

Careful about changing San Hill and Ozzel to add the line of sight requirement. Currently, it is not optional, so in the right situation your opponent can use it against you. Giving it a line of sight requirement makes it optional. It's probably still a good trade-off: making them more accessible to kill probably outweighs the benefit they gain from optional act control. Just hadn't seen anyone mention it yet.

Also, put Double Agent on good pieces. Most of the pieces that have it are awkward counter pieces, so there's 0 benefit to mainlining them unless you know a tournament is going to be swamped with Ozzel.

That goes for a lot of counter-abilities, actually. A lot of the counter-abilities work great, it's just that they seem to get incorporated into cost like they're Evade or Double Attack, when they're more comparable to Strong-Willed or Resilient. The result is usually a piece that's only worth the cost when you can use its counter-ability, so it never gets onto the table to begin with.

Shevu is an example of how to do it well: he's got Double Agent, but he's still a great benefit to a GA squad even if act control never darkens the door of the squads you face.

TL;DR: Put counter abilities on characters that don't need them to be good.
Caedus
Posted: Friday, August 16, 2019 9:24:57 AM
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So when is enough? Honest Question. When is enough? Right now activation control, more than likely, is holding back other monsters. So when the balance committee "fixes" act control, what's next when a new NPE rears its ugly head, and it will, what then? We kill that to allow another and another, etc.
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 16, 2019 9:33:00 AM
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Caedus wrote:
So when is enough? Honest Question. When is enough? Right now activation control, more than likely, is holding back other monsters. So when the balance committee "fixes" act control, what's next when a new NPE rears its ugly head, and it will, what then? We kill that to allow another and another, etc.


I mean^^^^^ this "monster" has been around for a ton of time. It has only not been abused for a while. Its power is undeniable.

To the question when is enough? What combos are there? My play group plays without Ozzel and them and things seem decently balanced at that point. But if there is something designers SHOULD be able to take care of it.
Design is STILL an individual thing, it shouldn't be. Every piece needs a purpose and Balance committee should be involved with design.
Caedus
Posted: Friday, August 16, 2019 10:53:56 AM
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Poggle Bombs = Bad, we killed it. Blast Bugs = Bad, we killed it. Reserves = Bad, we killed it x2. Three-pio = Bad we have to kill it. Activation Control = Bad, we have to kill it. Thrawn = Bad, we have to kill it. Morrigan = Bad, we have to kill it. Eighth Cortex = Bad, we have to kill it. Booming Voice = Bad, we have to kill it. What then? Bastila = Bad, we have to do something. Battle Ready = Bad, we have to do something. Insert what you got run over by at the last tournament = Bad, we have to kill it. My legit question is, when do we stop?
Caedus
Posted: Friday, August 16, 2019 10:59:34 AM
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Pretty soon, standard operations at Regionals will be...

1. Roll for map
2. Roll for initiative
3. Person who won initiative wins game
4. Submit results to the TO.


Play report. Such a great time seeing everyone. Regional was great, it lasted 1 hr (we took a lunch break after swiss) got home super early and spent time with my family. Congrats to Jason on another Regional win.
Caedus
Posted: Friday, August 16, 2019 11:14:29 AM
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I get that it's a little off the rails, but it just feels like we smash things we personally dont like to lose to.
kezzamachine
Posted: Friday, August 16, 2019 11:44:16 AM
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Caedus wrote:
Pretty soon, standard operations at Regionals will be...

1. Roll for map
2. Roll for initiative
3. Person who won initiative wins game
4. Submit results to the TO.


Play report. Such a great time seeing everyone. Regional was great, it lasted 1 hr (we took a lunch break after swiss) got home super early and spent time with my family. Congrats to Jason on another Regional win.


It's a little off the rails... but funny as!
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 16, 2019 12:03:58 PM
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Caedus wrote:
I get that it's a little off the rails, but it just feels like we smash things we personally dont like to lose to.


i think this is the point. If it is not fun for the masses it should go.

Being beat by activation control is not fun. it takes away from the game. It has for a very long time.
If everyone doesn't like it then it should go. That is the nature of anything. it either changes or you move away from it. (the Great Migration of set 6 should have taught us that lesson).

But we still hold onto these things as if change is bad.
Change is great. like I have said multiple times it is why the best games stick around so long. Magic the Gathering changes all the time, Sometimes you have to completely restart.

The other point is that IT BEATS EVERYONE!
If you want to win you bring Thramozzel or Dalozzel.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Friday, August 16, 2019 12:50:01 PM
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DarthMaim wrote:
Ric Olie with R2-A6


Commander Effect : You can choose to activate only 1 character in the phase that this character activates.



There is a huge difference in the wording of the commander effect ( in bold ), which is why I did not include Mr Olie in the proposed changes to the above 4 commanders!

Why does the wording matter? Surely the reason why you want to change act control is because it's broken, right? I don't see why you feel the need to errata Lord Krayt when he is completely fine as is.
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 16, 2019 6:13:23 PM
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
Ric Olie with R2-A6


Commander Effect : You can choose to activate only 1 character in the phase that this character activates.



There is a huge difference in the wording of the commander effect ( in bold ), which is why I did not include Mr Olie in the proposed changes to the above 4 commanders!

Why does the wording matter? Surely the reason why you want to change act control is because it's broken, right? I don't see why you feel the need to errata Lord Krayt when he is completely fine as is.


I think that he means that that act control is only for 1 phase so it does not really do anything. (on the Ric Olie)

I agree about Lord Krayt, doesn't need a change there. I would say that San Hill doesn;t need a change either, but tbh I feel that San Hill holds Separatists back from getting other things. I think eliminating him can open the faction to new design tbh.
DarthMaim
Posted: Saturday, August 17, 2019 9:08:54 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
Awesome ^

In that case I also vote for Suppressive Fire to be balanced.
If you need reasons I can write them out.




+1 for Morrigan to be balanced, not Suppressive Fire. However, I still believe activation control is more important to adjust. Morrigan is a close second. The thing is that, suppressive fire in the Rebel faction ( Hera Syndulla or Morrigan ), isn't Meta changing because they don't have Thrawn Mithurondu. This is very important to note. Remember, Morrigan can be used in all factions, however she seems only to be dominant/op with the Imps ( Thank you Thrawn )
kezzamachine
Posted: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:30:16 PM
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And Fringe...
CorellianComedian
Posted: Saturday, August 17, 2019 5:16:11 PM
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Could Morrigan be fixed by giving her Double instead of Twin? I've never played her, but it looks like the bigger problem with Suppressive Fire is that it's paired with her speed and high damage output on the move. Giving her Double lowers her moving damage output to 30. Sure, she can get GMA, but then you're also spending points on a TBSV you wouldn't otherwise have, and she's still slower than with Charging/Twin.

Or, here's another idea... although I don't like this solution, would Rival for the Empire make sense? I'm not familiar with the character, but I know she served the Empire under a false identity.

I usually despise when Rival goes on a piece for purely balance reasons, but if it makes thematic sense, I think it'd be worth it here.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Saturday, August 17, 2019 6:16:03 PM
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CorellianComedian wrote:
Or, here's another idea... although I don't like this solution, would Rival for the Empire make sense? I'm not familiar with the character, but I know she served the Empire under a false identity.

I usually despise when Rival goes on a piece for purely balance reasons, but if it makes thematic sense, I think it'd be worth it here.

I don't think Rival (Empire) would be justified. One of her personas was an Imperial Intelligence agent (Morrigan). Her other one was Nyna Callixte, Moff and Director of Imperial Intelligence. She secretly opposed the One Sith and supported Roan Fel's Empire-in-exile (though mostly she was just trying to protect her son, Cade).

Double Agent would be a very fitting ability for her, however, which would stop her from being played with Ozzel. I'm not sure how much that would help the situation, though.
DarthMaim
Posted: Saturday, August 17, 2019 6:19:54 PM
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CorellianComedian wrote:
Could Morrigan be fixed by giving her Double instead of Twin? I've never played her, but it looks like the bigger problem with Suppressive Fire is that it's paired with her speed and high damage output on the move. Giving her Double lowers her moving damage output to 30. Sure, she can get GMA, but then you're also spending points on a TBSV you wouldn't otherwise have, and she's still slower than with Charging/Twin.

Or, here's another idea... although I don't like this solution, would Rival for the Empire make sense? I'm not familiar with the character, but I know she served the Empire under a false identity.

I usually despise when Rival goes on a piece for purely balance reasons, but if it makes thematic sense, I think it'd be worth it here.



Errata her Charging Fire. With Thrawn swap and charging Fire, she becomes ridiculous. Please don't nerf Suppressive Fire. The ability is cool, and let's not effect other characters that have it. Please focus on Morrigan specifically, because she has too many nasty tricks on a 31 pt Fringe mini! ThumpUp
DarthMaim
Posted: Saturday, August 17, 2019 7:12:36 PM
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kezzamachine wrote:
And Fringe...


Fringe hasn't won multiple GenCon championships ( not even 1 ). Imperial faction is the powerhouse here. Yes, Dr Damon is one of the best players in the world, however now different players are winning GenCon with this unbalanced Thrawn, Ozzel combo!
CorellianComedian
Posted: Sunday, August 18, 2019 4:42:30 PM
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Double Agent would maybe be a good idea, then...? She'd still be over-the-top, but if Fringe hasn't been running around ruining anyone's day, I don't see a problem with Talon/Morrigan being a solid core for all-fringe squads.
DarthMaim
Posted: Sunday, August 18, 2019 7:00:52 PM
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DarkDracul wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
Balance committee.... It's there even one still?
The game is out of Balance. Act control is by far the most powerful strategy and has been since it came into existence.

Act control needs balancing.

Yes, there is a balance committee.
There were no complaints or requests last year so we didn't make any announcements.
I am paying attention to this thread.
Rest assured we will discuss everything brought up here.
Any topics receiving multiple complaints will go to a vote.




Could you or someone, please list the people who are still on and active with the balance committee? Thanks in advance.
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