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Krennic / Kallus / Death discussion Options
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, August 27, 2017 7:49:30 PM
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krennic cost 27
HP 60
Def 17
Atk 8
Dam 20


Unique
Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, he makes 1 extra attack against the same target)
Cunning Attack (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against an enemy who has not activated this round)
Disciplined Leader (This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed)
Rapport (Characters named Death Trooper cost 5 less when in the same squad as this character)
Rival (Cannot be in a squad with characters whose names contain Tarkin or Thrawn)
Squad Leader (Imperial trooper allies gain Squad Discipline)

Commander Effect

At the end of this character's turn, 1 Death Trooper ally may move up to double speed so long as it ends adjacent to this character and closer to an enemy than it started.

Imperial allies whose names contain Death gain Stormtrooper (Counts as a character named Stormtrooper) and Cunning Attack.

If an Imperial ally would take exactly 20 damage from Unit Bodyguard, it takes 10 damage instead; If it would take more than 20 damage from Unit Bodyguard, it takes 20 damage instead.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Agent Kallus 31
Counts As: Kallus
Hit Points: 90
Defense: 17
Attack: 11
Damage: 20
Unique
Bo-rifle (Replaces attacks: Make 2 attacks against the same adjacent enemy; these count as melee attacks. On a hit, living target is considered activated this round; save 6.)
Defensive Stance +4 (This character gets +4 Defense while activated)
It's a Trap! (Enemies with Stealth within 6 squares lose Stealth)
Rebel Hunter (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against Rebel enemies)
Synergy +4 (Allies named Stormtrooper get +4 Attack and +4 Defense while within 6 squares of this character)

Commander Effect

Each ally whose name contains Stormtrooper within 6 squares who attacks on its turn can move 2 extra squares at the end of that turn.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Death Trooper 28
Hit Points: 80
Defense: 17
Attack: 8
Damage: 20

Double Attack (On its turn, this character can make 1 extra attack instead of moving)
Squad Assault (+4 Attack while 3 allies with the same name as this character are within 6 squares)
Squad Firepower (+10 Damage while 3 allies with the same name as this character are within 6 squares)
Stealth (If this character has cover, it does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)
Synergy +4 (+4 Attack and +4 Defense while an ally whose name contains Krennic is within 6 squares)
Thorium Charge (Replaces Attacks: Designate 1 door within 6 squares as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Unit Bodyguard (If an adjacent ally with the same name as this character or an adjacent commander would take damage from an attack, this character can take the damage instead)

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, August 27, 2017 8:10:29 PM
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Death Troopers have a standard +8 attack and a +8 defense.

Thats the first thing.

+8 +8......

Squad Firepower
Squad Assault
Cunning
which is +8 +20

so now they get a +16 attack!!!!!!

this is asinine!!
Why is this made?
a freaking death trooper with a base 25 defense and a base 16 attack that can get to a 24 attack.

now we have the rest of Krennic.
He cant be disrupted.
he gives out squad discipline which allows death troopers to not be distracted or disrupted

he is also a massive movement breaker as in he gives a double speed movement to get adjacent to him.

Now the best part. Unit Bodyguard. If you use it, attacks that are exactly 20 are 10 and more than 20 are 20.

Making it very very hard to take these guys out unless you have area damage or spread damage.

So lets say you are running with Speeder and want to go hit every one of them but they are all attached to one another. you have disruptive in place, but its useless. you go and hit everyone for 40. they just bounce the damage around each other and take 20 each. and one takes 40 to save krennic from taking any damage.
Which is wonderful to stop speeder.

Now we talk about Serra keto. she comes waltzing in for a 30 attack and a 30 attack. it deals 40. now she is at the mercy of double attack from 2 death troopers that have a 20 attack and 30 damage each. and are adjacent so no soresu.those attacks are not going to miss so dead.
Cin Drallig comes waltzing up for his brutal strike twice kills one. and than takes 120 again. unless they dropped a 1 roll.
Very very hard to see why this is in effect.

Was this play tested?

Did it face up against Rogue one?

let me tell you, Baze starts with an 8 attack, with jyn it is a 10, with chirrut it is a 12, with artoo it is a 14. he still needs an 11 to hit them, or a 15 while they are in cover. Jyn is even worse. 7 base 11 against adjacent. 9 or 13 with artoo.
Cassian the sniper... 7 attack 11 with assassin, 13 with jyn, 15 with artoo.
he gets one shot. so standard 13 needs a 12 to hit than it deals 20 damage. even with reprisal in effect it deals 20 damage.

kanan runs up to use lightsaber with ahsoka, going to kill one with an 80 drop, instead it deals 40..

LUKE SKYWALKER, master of the order moves out throws his lightsaber to kill a trooper... supposed to do 120 damage. you literally unit bodyguard one attack to one, on attack to the other, they both take 20 each. unit bodyguard with one, takes 20, let the original take the 30.
So now instead of doing 120 damage, you do 90 and one death trooper has 40 life left, the other has 50, and the other has 60.
Next round you attack again. this time you just swap it around a bit. unit bodyguard to to the one with 60 twice it has 20, the one with 50 takes the original it has 20, the one with 40 once it has 20.

After 2 rounds of Luke Skywalker that costs 100 points it cannot kill a single friggin death trooper... possibly. if all attacks hit.

if he fails an initiative then he definitely cannot kill one. its crazy 240 damage potential cannot kill a single 3 man group of death troopers!

Caedus
Posted: Sunday, August 27, 2017 9:50:23 PM
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Couple things. First, calm down. Kinda feels like you might stroke out here. Second, I don't believe the Synergy's Stack, could be wrong. Also, Brutal strike should prevent them from using Unit Bodyguard, if I'm reading the Glossary correctly, it doesn't allow the attacks to be responded by SA's like Unit Bodyguard, which would take care of most of the rest of your rant. Hope that helps and you can find peace.

Also, if my above statement is correct, you should probably go after a Commander with Brutal strike, then you could take the ridiculous synergy out of play. Just my opinion
TheHutts
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 2:09:15 AM
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http://www.bloomilk.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=11909

Synergy doesn't stack.

I don't think they got tested enough, for a powerful piece that's potentially a new squad base.. But I doubt they'll dominate the meta as they'll struggle to keep up with mobile squads. Lots of stand and deliver power and some damage negation as well, probably comparable to say a droid squad with an energy shield.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 2:34:13 AM
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Joined: 5/3/2014
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Well made a big long comment, deleted it.

Synergy's do not stack.

That means a lot.

it also takes away from rogue one.


alright than, that's a lot lot better thank you for clearing that up, just played another whole game wrong due to very odd rules / changed rules / etc.
That makes 4 games in the recent past that I played wrong due to a rules change.

Force pull, Aggressive Negotiations, and now Synergy's

very very difficult to keep up with.
Thanks theHutts

jen'ari
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 3:01:55 AM
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P.s. unit bodyguard mixed with krennic is still ridiculously powerful
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 5:28:19 AM
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Joined: 5/26/2009
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This opinion is based on only one skirmish, but I had a ton of fun with Rogue One vs Death Troopers. The Death Troopers started out dominating completely. But once Krennic went down and they got down to 3 (and lost Squad bonuses) and the remaining Rogue One characters had Reprisal going... Rogue One pulled it out. It was a ton of fun and very cinematic. Chirrut's Force Sense and Baze's Missiles punished the Death Troopers for clumping up to try to use Unit Bodyguard.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 11:03:09 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
This opinion is based on only one skirmish, but I had a ton of fun with Rogue One vs Death Troopers. The Death Troopers started out dominating completely. But once Krennic went down and they got down to 3 (and lost Squad bonuses) and the remaining Rogue One characters had Reprisal going... Rogue One pulled it out. It was a ton of fun and very cinematic. Chirrut's Force Sense and Baze's Missiles punished the Death Troopers for clumping up to try to use Unit Bodyguard.


Well with the defense down to a 21 i can see them landing enough hits to get past unit bodyguard. Which is fine and a cool dynamic since Death Troopers get worse as time goes on and Rogue gets better as time goes on.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 11:14:21 AM
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Krennic doesn't play well with Daala (cost too high), Thrawn (Rival), or Vader of Lothal (Rival). Those are the power 11 pieces in Imperials. Krennic is strong, but I don't think he's strong enough to replace those guys. After the novelty wears off, I'd be surprised to see much from Krennic in the Spring tournament scene.

But I've been wrong before.
shmi15
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 11:24:29 AM
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The Synergies don't stack? Even tho they are completely different synergies altogether?

The Death Troopers Have synergy for Krennic, while within 6 they get +4/+4

Agent Kallus has Synergy for Stormtroopers, while they are within 6 squares, he gives them +4/4?

Aren't those two different abilities, coming from different sources for different reasons?

I could be wrong, and if so, I would be happy about it.
Gizmotronx
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 12:02:21 PM
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I initially tried to do the same thing with Kallus, but then remembered the rule. It's not a change, always been that way. Bonuses with the same name have never stacked. They are both called synergy, even though they are different in their description, just like Cunning 10 v Cunning 20.
swinefeld
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 12:04:14 PM
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Joined: 1/30/2009
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Location: Southern Illinois
stacking wrote:
Unless otherwise specified, no effect produced by a Force power, special ability, commander effect, or cover stacks with itself. For example, a Clone Trooper Commander can give nearby trooper followers a +3 bonus to Attack, but two Clone Trooper Commanders together can’t give a trooper follower a +6 bonus.


The confusion with Synergy stems from Rapport, the glossary of which specifically states that it stacks from different sources.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 12:35:18 PM
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Synergy should stack. Makes no sense that they don't tbh.

Baze gets synergy from chirrut because they are good friends.


Jyn gives synergy because she is a good leader. I see no reason why they would stop each other from happening.

That's where I think the confusion comes from. The common sense of knowing what synergy is and than applying it to the the game.

Don't get me wrong, I am so happy that it doesn't stack and great +8 +8
shmi15
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 12:46:07 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
Synergy should stack. Makes no sense that they don't tbh.

Baze gets synergy from chirrut because they are good friends.


Jyn gives synergy because she is a good leader. I see no reason why they would stop each other from happening.

That's where I think the confusion comes from. The common sense of knowing what synergy is and than applying it to the the game.

Don't get me wrong, I am so happy that it doesn't stack and great +8 +8


SO Baze's Synergy with Chirrutt does not stack with the synergy given from Jyn Erso?
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 12:49:04 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
Synergy should stack. Makes no sense that they don't tbh.

Baze gets synergy from chirrut because they are good friends.


Jyn gives synergy because she is a good leader. I see no reason why they would stop each other from happening.

That's where I think the confusion comes from. The common sense of knowing what synergy is and than applying it to the the game.

Don't get me wrong, I am so happy that it doesn't stack and great +8 +8


SO Baze's Synergy with Chirrutt does not stack with the synergy given from Jyn Erso?


Umm is that not right? Haha I am not the one to ask Richard. I have spent five hours recently playing vassal games and played a key component wrong haha
shmi15
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 12:51:03 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
shmi15 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
Synergy should stack. Makes no sense that they don't tbh.

Baze gets synergy from chirrut because they are good friends.


Jyn gives synergy because she is a good leader. I see no reason why they would stop each other from happening.

That's where I think the confusion comes from. The common sense of knowing what synergy is and than applying it to the the game.

Don't get me wrong, I am so happy that it doesn't stack and great +8 +8


SO Baze's Synergy with Chirrutt does not stack with the synergy given from Jyn Erso?


Umm is that not right? Haha I am not the one to ask Richard. I have spent five hours recently playing vassal games and played a let component wrong haha



From the ruling we just got, there is no way in the world they can get it. Because its the exact same scenario as these Death Troopers. Which means... Rogue One just worse... Because Baze and Chirruts base attack and defense are 2 less than they are intended to be...
shmi15
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 1:08:01 PM
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Wasn't part of the reason Their attack and defense made low so low was so they could all work together? I guess I am just confused now, was Rogue One playtested as if they got the +4/+4 bonus then? Or was this of no concern every during any playtest?
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 1:38:24 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
shmi15 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
Synergy should stack. Makes no sense that they don't tbh.

Baze gets synergy from chirrut because they are good friends.


Jyn gives synergy because she is a good leader. I see no reason why they would stop each other from happening.

That's where I think the confusion comes from. The common sense of knowing what synergy is and than applying it to the the game.

Don't get me wrong, I am so happy that it doesn't stack and great +8 +8


SO Baze's Synergy with Chirrutt does not stack with the synergy given from Jyn Erso?


Umm is that not right? Haha I am not the one to ask Richard. I have spent five hours recently playing vassal games and played a let component wrong haha



From the ruling we just got, there is no way in the world they can get it. Because its the exact same scenario as these Death Troopers. Which means... Rogue One just worse... Because Baze and Chirruts base attack and defense are 2 less than they are intended to be...

The facestealer says "push and pull of the ocean and moon spirits" is everlasting.

and so is the give and take of minis. You win some you lose some.

You lose out on Baze and Jyn, you gain on Deathtroopers.

This time the fear of the +8+8 is better stifled than the Coolness of the +4+4 granted
swinefeld
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 1:48:46 PM
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here is another link to a Sithborg ruling, for reference

http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=11333
Caedus
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2017 2:34:11 PM
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Joined: 4/20/2015
Posts: 1,227
jen'ari wrote:
Well made a big long comment, deleted it.

Synergy's do not stack.

That means a lot.

it also takes away from rogue one.


alright than, that's a lot lot better thank you for clearing that up, just played another whole game wrong due to very odd rules / changed rules / etc.
That makes 4 games in the recent past that I played wrong due to a rules change.

Force pull, Aggressive Negotiations, and now Synergy's

very very difficult to keep up with.
Thanks theHutts



Artoo's CE would stack with Churrut and Baze's Synergy though, because it is a CE and not a Special Ability given by a CE.
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