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I do not think Bastilla needs to be changed. She is an effective counter to some very potent (read broken) squads. Instead. i would propose a radical alternative. If we really want all these problems (Bastilla, Blast Bugs, Board wide swap, out activate) to stop, sets must be cycled out. Look at every other game, 40k, MTG, Yughio (last i checked?). All these games in their competitive tournament play have a rotation. Old stuff is outlawed from play. I never understood why WOTC never cycled anything out. everything was always legal, a perpetual legacy format. We've continued that and its lead to uncountable issues. How many squads still include Mas, R2 Astro, Darth Sidious? I know this is a ridiculous suggestion. I know I'm Years out of date making it. I know it's almost logistically impossible. But a rotation cycle is the only way that I see these problems being solved. As many have mentioned, erretas are band aids. They fix the problem temporarily until it crops up again. This is just my two cents. I welcome others input.
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Lord_Ball wrote:jen'ari wrote:
So what is more of a cheat.
ABM, simply because the other listed may not be very fun to play against (cheezy), but they are about tactics not nerfing the game fundamentals for your opponent. Bastila VS CEs is kind of like Palpatine, Sith Lord Vs Clones (In many ways Execute Order 66 is a cheat ability, but since Palps pretty much sucks it's a non-issue cheat). Dodonna and Mas Ammedda are the biggest cheats in the game bar none. and they both cost less than 10. So the biggest cheats need a cheat to win, I am fine with that. We find soft counters for those two than I am instantly on board with the idea of doing something with Bastila. But as is... We need OR to get a tad better and be competitive so that the counter to the MASSIVE CHEATS is already in place. @Cassuss Fett I think erratas are band aids in some cases, but BANS are great. Ban Blast bug ability, ban Booming Voice, design easy counters to Dodonna and Ozzel (San Hill and Muun tactics should stay a separatist thing imo) I mean, buzz droids have done a wonderful job, you know?
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Cassus fett wrote:I do not think Bastilla needs to be changed. She is an effective counter to some very potent (read broken) squads. Instead. i would propose a radical alternative. If we really want all these problems (Bastilla, Blast Bugs, Board wide swap, out activate) to stop, sets must be cycled out. Look at every other game, 40k, MTG, Yughio (last i checked?). All these games in their competitive tournament play have a rotation. Old stuff is outlawed from play. I never understood why WOTC never cycled anything out. everything was always legal, a perpetual legacy format. We've continued that and its lead to uncountable issues. How many squads still include Mas, R2 Astro, Darth Sidious?
I know this is a ridiculous suggestion. I know I'm Years out of date making it. I know it's almost logistically impossible. But a rotation cycle is the only way that I see these problems being solved. As many have mentioned, erretas are band aids. They fix the problem temporarily until it crops up again. This is just my two cents. I welcome others input. In order to actually have some type of cycling system would require a lot of restructuring. The game frankly wasn't set up for a cycling system. Point blank, the biggest problem that you would run into is that there are to many factions for a cycling system to work exceptionally well. Could one be put in place and have it work? Of course, but you probably have to keep all of the WotC content and just cycle out V-Sets. Not to horrible of an idea, but not as satisfying as otherwise could be. The biggest barrier to cycling is the community though. Most don't have the desire to have a meta that constantly changes. Most people want to play a rendition of something they have always played. It sucks because having a cycling system could really help us bring in new people. As is we just have so much content regardless of how fun the game is or where the meta is. On top of that, without cycling it is incredibly difficult to stop power creep from constantly rising and at the same time introduce characters that can impact the meta and get the community excited. In the coming years we will have two very big questions to answer. One, how do we make the game more inviting to new players? Two, how do we decrease the ever rising power creep? By the time we seriously answer these questions though, the best answers will have become more extreme than most will desire...
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Darth_Frenchy wrote:Cassus fett wrote:I do not think Bastilla needs to be changed. She is an effective counter to some very potent (read broken) squads. Instead. i would propose a radical alternative. If we really want all these problems (Bastilla, Blast Bugs, Board wide swap, out activate) to stop, sets must be cycled out. Look at every other game, 40k, MTG, Yughio (last i checked?). All these games in their competitive tournament play have a rotation. Old stuff is outlawed from play. I never understood why WOTC never cycled anything out. everything was always legal, a perpetual legacy format. We've continued that and its lead to uncountable issues. How many squads still include Mas, R2 Astro, Darth Sidious?
I know this is a ridiculous suggestion. I know I'm Years out of date making it. I know it's almost logistically impossible. But a rotation cycle is the only way that I see these problems being solved. As many have mentioned, erretas are band aids. They fix the problem temporarily until it crops up again. This is just my two cents. I welcome others input. In order to actually have some type of cycling system would require a lot of restructuring. The game frankly wasn't set up for a cycling system. Point blank, the biggest problem that you would run into is that there are to many factions for a cycling system to work exceptionally well. Could one be put in place and have it work? Of course, but you probably have to keep all of the WotC content and just cycle out V-Sets. Not to horrible of an idea, but not as satisfying as otherwise could be. The biggest barrier to cycling is the community though. Most don't have the desire to have a meta that constantly changes. Most people want to play a rendition of something they have always played. It sucks because having a cycling system could really help us bring in new people. As is we just have so much content regardless of how fun the game is or where the meta is. On top of that, without cycling it is incredibly difficult to stop power creep from constantly rising and at the same time introduce characters that can impact the meta and get the community excited. In the coming years we will have two very big questions to answer. One, how do we make the game more inviting to new players? Two, how do we decrease the ever rising power creep? By the time we seriously answer these questions though, the best answers will have become more extreme than most will desire... Yeah… I know. Unfortunately it's a huge ask, as I pointed out it's years late and ridiculous. Doubley unfortunate though, I truly believe it's the only way to stop this. What you said about all WOTC content being legal and cycling out V-Sets I don't see why that's un-doable. Frankly, it sounds rather simple. I am not tourney organizer however so I cannot speak with authority. I am also by no means suggesting erretas and bans shouldn't happen. They most definitely should when needed. It will cut out some favorite squads for sure. But that is the point of creating new pieces is it not? So we don't all just keep playing the same squads? plus there's always an option of a "legacy" format too where everything is legal
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Anything you want to try can be tried in a tournament if you're the organizer. If everyone loves it, maybe it catches on and that's how things move forward.
To start, you could do WotC + only even-numbered Vsets, or WotC + only odd-numbered Vsets.
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Because she's a hard counter Bastila can be an "NPE". She counters the glue that holds several abusive squads together as well as punching a few innocent bystanders in the face. The meta was narrow (snowspeeder) when V-Set 1 decided to make the underdeveloped OR faction playable, and they hit that nail on the head super hard.
Pre-Bastila, Commander Effects were the peanut butter and marshmallow spread of Tier 1 squads. Those squads exploited Commander Effects with Booming Voice or stacking other powerful SA. Therefore, Bastila not only made OR instantly competitive but also created a Gatekeeper against squads overly reliant on Commander Effects. Some players liked her, some thought she was too strong ... others were just glad not to see snowspeeder squads.
If that were the end of the story, Bastila may eventually have needed errata. However, the community was begging for playable vehicles and trooper squads, so designers gave it too them. Therefore, several elements were introduced to the game to circumvent ABM; Palaeon, Prideful, Camaraderie, Disciplined Leader ... ect. It worked! not only did Trooper/ Vehicle squads become top tier, they also hard countered the hard counter! The competitive meta once again narrowed to a few squads and Bastila immediately went from Tier 1 to an impotent Tier 2 hate squad...
Currently lots of squads have hard counters to ABM, and the newer Melee/ Low act squads designed to compete with those squads also have NO problem with Bastila squads. Therefore, design teams are content to "buoy" Bastila where she is, not let her sink or rise any further than current sea level. Some players wish she were better, some think she should take a deep dive . . . others miss snowspeeder squads.
The work of our designers and balance committee have started to pay off and our meta is more fun and diverse.
Bastila is currently Teir 1.5 at best. She's one of the stronger options OR has to offer, but we are starting to get OR subfactions that could run without her. Army of Light, Covenant, and many other OR goodies SANS Bastila nowadays are pushing Tier 1.5. So if Bastila were changed now, Bastila and most of the OR faction would be total garbage.
However, in the spirit of the thread... if I were to change something it would be the +10 damage. Give it to only certain characters or drop it altogether. That would have a big impact on OR squads until designers created new damage boosts. Bastila (ABM) would probably still see play without the damage boost, at least until the new snowspeeder squad comes out.
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TheHutts wrote:I just really like Bastila, and I think the only problem with her is that too many strong tournament squads can ignore her (Ysalamari, Force Immunity), so she doesn't get much play any more.
You have a 33 point piece out the back meditating, so I think the damage boost is essential - OR squads still have to furnish other essential tech like door control on top of that.
I like the play style of a handful of good uniques, an OR senator, and Bastila - it's a fun squad base. I just can't bring it to a tournament anymore as it has too many bad matchups. +1. Yeah, nerf Bastila, and you will never ever see her again. I don't see how Bastila is the issue in our game. OR has won only 1 GenCon ever! 
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I am on the fence. Or in the fence. Part of me thinks she hinders the designing options in OR. The other part of me completely agrees, that board wide CE would again, dominate the Meta of the game if she were not around in full power. I like the idea of using SA to get around her. And I think most factions can still deal with OR, even without their CE. But... She can destroy a squad just by being there. Its a tough decision honestly. What about this... Imagine Bastilla does not exist. What would you bring to a Regional, or GenCon? Whats something you would run, but Bastilla hinders your ability to do that? Lets start there... And see where it goes. If she is only keeping people from running swarms... The keep her. She is needed, lol. But f there are legit squads, that are just ruined by Bastilla, lets here them. Then, the question is, what squads are the best option in OR without Bastilla. These are the questions that need to be answered before a decision is made i think. The first one being the most important.
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The last several years OR has not really been viable at tier 1.
I think that has changed now.
I will be very interested to see what the regional season brings, as I think we will see at least a few OR squads.
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TimmerB123 wrote:Clearly there is a variety of opinions on Bastila.
Even though I have my personal opinions, in general I don't think something should be changed unless -
A. There is an overwhelming majority (near consensus) that want the change
B. It negatively impacts the competitive game (i.e. "Broken")
As of now the only 2 that fit that bill are Daala and Blast Bugs, with an outside shot for see-threepio
The root of this evil lies in Diplomat in 2 of these 3 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ATMSalad's championship Daala squad had 4 diplomats ( very annoying ) and See-threepio has the Diplomat ability as well. Diplomat is an annoying and frustrating special ability that I have noticed causes NPE's for many SWM players! Mandalorians Death Watch Berserker C 12 Sith Sith Pureblood C 21 Rebel Bria Tharen R 24 Old Republic Admiral Saul Karath VR 25 Imperial Luuke Skywalker 26 Fringe Vornskr Alpha UC 26 Yuuzhan Vong Shedao Shai R 30 Yuuzhan Vong Commander Tsalok VR 35 Yuuzhan Vong Yuuzhan Vong Fire Breather UC 46 Fringe Rathtar UC 52 Sith Leviathan R 60 Terentatek 146 These are the only minis currently with "Indiscriminate" to deal with diplomats. Have the design team introduce a commander that gives out "Indiscriminate" with either a commander effect or a special ability. 
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spryguy1981 wrote:I think Bastila is perfectly fine and doesn't really need any changes. Huge +1!
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jak wrote: holy f-ing cow!!!  7 .5 years later, there's talk of changing Bastila? she doesn't show up to often, I'm usually the only one that plays her. Let her be! maybe I should ban her from Frosty,  so things don't get out of control
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