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Attack the Top 2 Factions! Stop the Banning and Errata'ing! Options
General_Grievous
Posted: Sunday, December 3, 2017 9:09:32 PM
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DarthMaim wrote:
It just seems that new sets now just try and not rock the boat or the SWM community, to suffer community outrage, criticism, and backlash. Let's just be politically correct and not be "too" aggressive to do anything Tier 1! It's like walking on egg shells and pins and needles. "Let's not upset peops and make an OP mini that makes other factions Tier 1! " This just makes for boring sets, and will ultimately kill the game. There needs to be excitement, and to have change, and to have other factions compete. Not only compete, but win GenCon! New sets that focus on Tier 2 and 3 squads, are for the birds. You're not going to attract new players, when the same minis and factions are always dominating and winning. And if you're in favor of this, then shame on you! There is no substance to this. No thought. Just mindless drones making the same cookie cutter squads, that win again, and again, and again. In fact, eventually, veteran players will fade and fizzle, as well. Why wouldn't they? There is no challenge! ThumbDown


Well except for the whole Unkar bit, that was taking the boat. Placing charges on it. And then blowing it to pieces.

Seriously though, all I want for Christmas is Unkar balanced to what the community wanted.

More on topic with taking out the big dogs (though still, bringing Reserves back into existince does help with that as an alternative playstyle that could still maybe theoretically surprise a NPE Imperial team if the Force is with your rolls) I am down for more Hunter abilities, and for more Ven-style versions of the original bests. Make a *insert famous jedi/Sith here*, Duelist

And go from there
DarthMaim
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 8:18:27 AM
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DarthMaim wrote:
I moved this discussion from the Official Balance Committee Rulings post;



The way you attack these factions is to instead of banning, nerfing, or errata'ing, the Rebels and Imperials, make new characters, commander effects, and special abilities, that specifically attack these 2 factions!

1. Much more Rebel Hunter

2. Much more Imperial Hunter

3. Ability that negates booming voice

4. Commander effects or more "Never Tell Me the Odds" and abilities that negate Master Tactician

5. Abilities or commander effects that hinder Charging Fire

6. Abilities or commander effects that nullify Prideful

7. Some type of ability or commander effect that negates and nullifies board wide commander effects

8. More ways to deal with Diplomat ( especially the 5 pt diplomats, uggh )

9. Cheaper Disruptive and commanders that grant disciplined leader ( I mean, why do the Rebels get the only 8 pt Disruptive mini, 9 pt activation modifier, and 14pt crazy boardwide commander effect? )

10. More CHEAPER ways to deal with activation modifying commanders............................................This is something that has been an NPE for almost a decade! And whoever does this, allow them to sit and spin in the back as well!

11. A commander effect or special ability that can DESTROY AND ELIMINATE ridiculous, cowerdous, cherry picking commanders that just sit in a locked room, in the far reaches of the map, never to see the light of day, or a speck of dirt on their uniforms, or a drop of blood spilled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

12. Special ability or commander effect that ignores or makes immune to Ysalamiri



Let's get creative here ladies and gentleman. Stop being lazy by just throwing Thor's hammer down and banning everything that has already been established,that just confuses the community and costs us more money and time consuming efforts with all the re-printing and re-designing of stuff that has already been established!




"The more things change, the more they stay the same"


I am still standing by my forum topic from last year, about the dominance of the Imperial and Rebel factions!

DarthMaim
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 8:26:54 AM
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Ven was refreshing to see and 2 of them in the final 6!

But how about some love to Seps, New Republic, Mandos, and Sith?
DarthMaim
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 8:29:03 AM
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With still no ways or counters for Jedi's to effectively deal with Suppressive Fire and Ysalamiri, they are still, at the end of the day, "ded in the water"!
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 8:31:38 AM
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New republic really doesn't need anything, they just need to be played.
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 9:19:58 AM
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NR needs a tier 1 Luke that is the focal point of the squad.

One of the big issues is the disconnect between sets.
Set 14 bright it some good looking covenant stuff, just to have 15 and 16 bring it completely different stuff.
I like the idea of power 9-9.5 pieces that can be built off.

The new Revan probably needs support, maybe a new version of the Jedi weapons master that can play well with Revan. Maybe another unique Jedi with GMA could do the trick or one with the new force dash ability....

All I am trying to say is that getting close enough can be alright if the next set sees the potential and builds off of it.
Tbh I think subsequent sets should retain half the designers from the previous set.

2 stay 2 leave. That way they can continue with the wishes from the first set. So if Revan was supposed to be tier 1, but it comes out as tier 1.5 the next set can work to fix that while keeping Revan the focal point
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 11:58:29 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
NR needs a tier 1 Luke that is the focal point of the squad.

One of the big issues is the disconnect between sets.
Set 14 bright it some good looking covenant stuff, just to have 15 and 16 bring it completely different stuff.
I like the idea of power 9-9.5 pieces that can be built off.

The new Revan probably needs support, maybe a new version of the Jedi weapons master that can play well with Revan. Maybe another unique Jedi with GMA could do the trick or one with the new force dash ability....

All I am trying to say is that getting close enough can be alright if the next set sees the potential and builds off of it.
Tbh I think subsequent sets should retain half the designers from the previous set.

2 stay 2 leave. That way they can continue with the wishes from the first set. So if Revan was supposed to be tier 1, but it comes out as tier 1.5 the next set can work to fix that while keeping Revan the focal point



N.R. needs a really good player to run it
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 12:14:37 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
NR needs a tier 1 Luke that is the focal point of the squad.

One of the big issues is the disconnect between sets.
Set 14 bright it some good looking covenant stuff, just to have 15 and 16 bring it completely different stuff.
I like the idea of power 9-9.5 pieces that can be built off.

The new Revan probably needs support, maybe a new version of the Jedi weapons master that can play well with Revan. Maybe another unique Jedi with GMA could do the trick or one with the new force dash ability....

All I am trying to say is that getting close enough can be alright if the next set sees the potential and builds off of it.
Tbh I think subsequent sets should retain half the designers from the previous set.

2 stay 2 leave. That way they can continue with the wishes from the first set. So if Revan was supposed to be tier 1, but it comes out as tier 1.5 the next set can work to fix that while keeping Revan the focal point



N.R. needs a really good player to run it


NR needs a new Luke to be ran by a good player
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 12:19:31 PM
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P.S. I have been saying that Ozzel and Dodonna run SWM. Imperials has it a ton better because they have Gilad who lets you drop Ozzel if desired.

Isn't there a counter to swapping pieces somewhere? If not, maybe we should get one. It would affect Versatility and Gilad (anyone else).
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 12:32:21 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
P.S. I have been saying that Ozzel and Dodonna run SWM. Imperials has it a ton better because they have Gilad who lets you drop Ozzel if desired.

Isn't there a counter to swapping pieces somewhere? If not, maybe we should get one. It would affect Versatility and Gilad (anyone else).

There is a counter, Booster Terrik (Interdict). TimmerB actually talked about how he has created counters to the very squad he won with this year (Booster and Unkar) on SHNN. Booster is a counter to both Pellaeon and Thrawn (Opportunist doesn't work and swapped characters get shot at). Currently, Booster is held back from being competitive by the lack of good pirates to be in squads with him.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 12:35:11 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
NR needs a tier 1 Luke that is the focal point of the squad.

One of the big issues is the disconnect between sets.
Set 14 bright it some good looking covenant stuff, just to have 15 and 16 bring it completely different stuff.
I like the idea of power 9-9.5 pieces that can be built off.

The new Revan probably needs support, maybe a new version of the Jedi weapons master that can play well with Revan. Maybe another unique Jedi with GMA could do the trick or one with the new force dash ability....

All I am trying to say is that getting close enough can be alright if the next set sees the potential and builds off of it.
Tbh I think subsequent sets should retain half the designers from the previous set.

2 stay 2 leave. That way they can continue with the wishes from the first set. So if Revan was supposed to be tier 1, but it comes out as tier 1.5 the next set can work to fix that while keeping Revan the focal point



N.R. needs a really good player to run it


NR needs a new Luke to be ran by a good player



100 point luke
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 12:56:17 PM
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
P.S. I have been saying that Ozzel and Dodonna run SWM. Imperials has it a ton better because they have Gilad who lets you drop Ozzel if desired.

Isn't there a counter to swapping pieces somewhere? If not, maybe we should get one. It would affect Versatility and Gilad (anyone else).

There is a counter, Booster Terrik (Interdict). TimmerB actually talked about how he has created counters to the very squad he won with this year (Booster and Unkar) on SHNN. Booster is a counter to both Pellaeon and Thrawn (Opportunist doesn't work and swapped characters get shot at). Currently, Booster is held back from being competitive by the lack of good pirates to be in squads with him.


Just reread booster. At 31 points and 1 attack I don't ever see him being played. But it is another example of a designer print something out and then no one continuing it.
I wonder if there is a way to make pirates playable in Seps and give them a good squad as well.
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 12:57:29 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
NR needs a tier 1 Luke that is the focal point of the squad.

One of the big issues is the disconnect between sets.
Set 14 bright it some good looking covenant stuff, just to have 15 and 16 bring it completely different stuff.
I like the idea of power 9-9.5 pieces that can be built off.

The new Revan probably needs support, maybe a new version of the Jedi weapons master that can play well with Revan. Maybe another unique Jedi with GMA could do the trick or one with the new force dash ability....

All I am trying to say is that getting close enough can be alright if the next set sees the potential and builds off of it.
Tbh I think subsequent sets should retain half the designers from the previous set.

2 stay 2 leave. That way they can continue with the wishes from the first set. So if Revan was supposed to be tier 1, but it comes out as tier 1.5 the next set can work to fix that while keeping Revan the focal point



N.R. needs a really good player to run it


NR needs a new Luke to be ran by a good player



100 point luke


What's the build? The best chance of tier 1 BHC pieces is sith Mastermind and got beat bad against the ozzel/gilad machine
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 1:39:02 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
P.S. I have been saying that Ozzel and Dodonna run SWM. Imperials has it a ton better because they have Gilad who lets you drop Ozzel if desired.

Isn't there a counter to swapping pieces somewhere? If not, maybe we should get one. It would affect Versatility and Gilad (anyone else).

There is a counter, Booster Terrik (Interdict). TimmerB actually talked about how he has created counters to the very squad he won with this year (Booster and Unkar) on SHNN. Booster is a counter to both Pellaeon and Thrawn (Opportunist doesn't work and swapped characters get shot at). Currently, Booster is held back from being competitive by the lack of good pirates to be in squads with him.


Just reread booster. At 31 points and 1 attack I don't ever see him being played. But it is another example of a designer print something out and then no one continuing it.
I wonder if there is a way to make pirates playable in Seps and give them a good squad as well.


Unkar + Booster (with Talon) beat thrawn swap run by me in playtesting. No pelleaon exchange, if I used swap I got (twin) shot at, no auto winning inits, opportunist useless. And they get a few more activations if I heavily outactivate.

Word on the street is more pirate love coming soon
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 1:46:11 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Unkar + Booster (with Talon) beat thrawn swap run by me in playtesting. No pelleaon exchange, if I used swap I got (twin) shot at, no auto winning inits, opportunist useless. And they get a few more activations if I heavily outactivate.

Word on the street is more pirate love coming soon

What kind of attackers were used in the squad? I don't see many great smugglers, scoundrels or pirates- most of them have bad stats and bad abilities.
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 2:06:18 PM
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Unkar + Booster (with Talon) beat thrawn swap run by me in playtesting. No pelleaon exchange, if I used swap I got (twin) shot at, no auto winning inits, opportunist useless. And they get a few more activations if I heavily outactivate.

Word on the street is more pirate love coming soon

What kind of attackers were used in the squad? I don't see many great smugglers, scoundrels or pirates- most of them have bad stats and bad abilities.


I believe this was the squad:

--Boosted up!--
32 Talon Karrde, Information Broker
31 Booster Terrik, Smuggler Chief
31 Morrigan Corde
18 Unkar Plutt
15 Ponda Baba, Galactic Criminal
13 Czerka Scientist
12 Duros Scoundrel
12 Human Scoundrel
12 Kanjiklub Gang Member
10 Droopy McCool
8 R7 Astromech Droid
5 Salacious Crumb

(199pts. 12 activations)

It's deceptively strong. Jolt and twin, ponda protects the squishy pieces. Enemy moves out of turn - 60 damage to the face (+14/+15 attack with cunning/opportunist +20) MTB? Master Tactician? Don't be so confident. I'll spin salacious to WAGER you might just not win that init. Unkar might bring a couple thugs to mighty swing on you, and forget about stealth. Ysalamiri and disruptive are always handy. And of course, never, ever count out Morigan Corde with +4/10 always on and extra movement pre first activation.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 2:28:57 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
I believe this was the squad:

--Boosted up!--
32 Talon Karrde, Information Broker
31 Booster Terrik, Smuggler Chief
31 Morrigan Corde
18 Unkar Plutt
15 Ponda Baba, Galactic Criminal
13 Czerka Scientist
12 Duros Scoundrel
12 Human Scoundrel
12 Kanjiklub Gang Member
10 Droopy McCool
8 R7 Astromech Droid
5 Salacious Crumb

(199pts. 12 activations)

It's deceptively strong. Jolt and twin, ponda protects the squishy pieces. Enemy moves out of turn - 60 damage to the face (+14/+15 attack with cunning/opportunist +20) MTB? Master Tactician? Don't be so confident. I'll spin salacious to WAGER you might just not win that init. Unkar might bring a couple thugs to mighty swing on you, and forget about stealth. Ysalamiri and disruptive are always handy. And of course, never, ever count out Morigan Corde with +4/10 always on and extra movement pre first activation.

Interesting. When building with Booster, I had counted all the 10/20 HP characters out, as I didn't think such fragile characters could be competitive. It's pretty strong against Thrawn, but it has a weakness against direct damage taking out your two 10 HP attackers that would I think prevent it from being able to beat a good amount of other squads. Here's to hoping the "pirate love" is in the form of pirates with more survivability.
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 3:34:53 PM
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Yes, agreed.

And I'm not trying to claim that that squad is top-tier, in some ways it's a hate squad. But if some good scoundrels, smugglers and pirates come out, and Booster becomes viable - I will strongly think twice about running Thrawn.
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 4:32:04 PM
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So, again, it is pointing to the idea that we need more connection between sets. Booster needs help to see play and become an actual counter of sorts to Thrawn.


Other "squad foundations" need support, imo, to have a chance at becoming tier 1 and are "new or recent" are covenant, booster-pirates, even a new battle Droid for Grievous, non Uniques for Vitiate, a Mando shooter to go with Canderous.
DarthMaim
Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 7:42:57 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Unkar + Booster (with Talon) beat thrawn swap run by me in playtesting. No pelleaon exchange, if I used swap I got (twin) shot at, no auto winning inits, opportunist useless. And they get a few more activations if I heavily outactivate.

Word on the street is more pirate love coming soon

What kind of attackers were used in the squad? I don't see many great smugglers, scoundrels or pirates- most of them have bad stats and bad abilities.


I believe this was the squad:

--Boosted up!--
32 Talon Karrde, Information Broker
31 Booster Terrik, Smuggler Chief
31 Morrigan Corde
18 Unkar Plutt
15 Ponda Baba, Galactic Criminal
13 Czerka Scientist
12 Duros Scoundrel
12 Human Scoundrel
12 Kanjiklub Gang Member
10 Droopy McCool
8 R7 Astromech Droid
5 Salacious Crumb

(199pts. 12 activations)

It's deceptively strong. Jolt and twin, ponda protects the squishy pieces. Enemy moves out of turn - 60 damage to the face (+14/+15 attack with cunning/opportunist +20) MTB? Master Tactician? Don't be so confident. I'll spin salacious to WAGER you might just not win that init. Unkar might bring a couple thugs to mighty swing on you, and forget about stealth. Ysalamiri and disruptive are always handy. And of course, never, ever count out Morigan Corde with +4/10 always on and extra movement pre first activation.


Interesting that your counter/"hate" squad has the 31 pt Morrigan, as well. Morrigan is in a bunch of my squads, and guys in my LGS have her in theirs, as well. I have been saying for awhile that she is too good for only 31 pts. With Talon and Thrawn, she's just off the charts!

The other factions will always be outclassed without significant upgrades. You can't bring them up to the class of the Imps and Rebs, without a ton of help. The Imps have powerful, support, and flexibility, with boardwide commander effects, and commanders that sit in their comefy sofa chairs, in their air conditioned offices. They will always benefit with new Fringe characters that are created, as well. Rebels have and seemingly will always have the cheapest and dirtiest tech out there, with their crazy boardwide ally ability. The "counters" being made to help other factions are too expensive, and designers are scared to hit "homeruns" on new minis for the other factions, because of community ridicule, outrage, etc.
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