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Explain the obsession with the EU to me Options
shmi15
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:46:47 PM
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I really am lost at why everyone is so obsessed with the EU... It has some of the most idiotic things, mixed in with cool Force Users, and a few good back stories. So what is it that you love? And don't be vague, I want details about why you think its the greatest thing you have ever seen, and that its not just Nostalgia. Because I am willing to bet for anything you can come up with you like, I can find something in that series thats completely stupid with bad writing/plot lines.


Challenge Issued!

PS I do mean this in good fun, I am curious by all means, and I expect it to get heated, but I also expect a good conversation, where I can get more detailed understandings.

cassekiel
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 6:11:56 PM
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I would argue that in most Star Wars material there is bad writing and some cheesy concepts. For me Star Wars has always been about the Force and I just always enjoyed having new material coming out to add to the galaxie's history. Some of it was terrible but most of the time I think the fans were under the impression we might not ever get any more from Lucas so it was great to have "something." (Obviously not the case while the prequels were being made).

So my short answer is it has some great characters and explores the force in different ways that are not in the movies.
shmi15
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 6:33:34 PM
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cassekiel wrote:
I would argue that in most Star Wars material there is bad writing and some cheesy concepts. For me Star Wars has always been about the Force and I just always enjoyed having new material coming out to add to the galaxie's history. Some of it was terrible but most of the time I think the fans were under the impression we might not ever get any more from Lucas so it was great to have "something." (Obviously not the case while the prequels were being made).

So my short answer is it has some great characters and explores the force in different ways that are not in the movies.



So I guess I am confused... Episodes 7/8 are just not "Force" enough for you?

Have you looked at the Darth vader Disney comics.... Its literally ALL about the Force?

So is the books Lords of the Sith, and Dark Disciple.


It seems to me you didn't like the OT either, and you were really only a fan of the books? If thats the case, jsut read the books that Disney put out, or the infinite Comic line that they have. Have you done any of that?
cassekiel
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:18:03 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
cassekiel wrote:
I would argue that in most Star Wars material there is bad writing and some cheesy concepts. For me Star Wars has always been about the Force and I just always enjoyed having new material coming out to add to the galaxie's history. Some of it was terrible but most of the time I think the fans were under the impression we might not ever get any more from Lucas so it was great to have "something." (Obviously not the case while the prequels were being made).

So my short answer is it has some great characters and explores the force in different ways that are not in the movies.



So I guess I am confused... Episodes 7/8 are just not "Force" enough for you?

Have you looked at the Darth vader Disney comics.... Its literally ALL about the Force?

So is the books Lords of the Sith, and Dark Disciple.


It seems to me you didn't like the OT either, and you were really only a fan of the books? If thats the case, jsut read the books that Disney put out, or the infinite Comic line that they have. Have you done any of that?


No, I dislike episodes 7 and 8 for other reasons.

For the record I love the original trilogy. I love the prequels and Clone Wars as well. I am not sure why you thought I don't like the OT.

Essentially to me all of the new "reboots" are just about doing everything bigger, better, and faster. I could care less about Hollywood telling me how to feel about current political events. And honestly, I find it condescending when I see all of these commercials and co-branding telling me how to feel about Star Wars, especially when their stories behind their films are just lame. There is enough exploration of the Force in the Last Jedi but I did not care for any of the characters. Leia is barely in them and Luke isn't even close to what a Jedi would be. (another topic that I don't really want to get into here).

I have never said that the books/comics under Disney are not good. However, Disney has made their agenda very clear to me so you will have to forgive me for making an assumption that I probably won't like them.

I will take a look what you recommended. Where I am at now I am finding tons of hardcover older Star Wars books at yard sales for about $1 each so I have nothing to lose. I am just at a point, due to disappointment, that I want to explore the EU stuff that I never got to. I have given Disney a fair play but you will have to forgive me if I don't want to be on their merry-go-round.

If you like the newer stuff better, then that is wonderful and you will have plenty to look forward to in the future. There is plenty out there for everyone.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 9:53:45 PM
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Let's phrase this another way.

I really am lost at why everyone is so obsessed with the new trilogy... It has some of the most idiotic things, mixed in with cool Force Users, and a few good back stories. So what is it that you love? And don't be vague, I want details about why you think it's the greatest thing you have ever seen, and that it's not just novelty. Because I am willing to bet for anything you can come up with you like, I can find something in that series that's completely stupid with bad writing/plot lines.


Challenge Issued!
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 10:11:15 PM
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I'm happy to let people like whatever they like.
kobayashimaru
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 10:12:53 PM
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howdy,
an excellent symposia question.
I am in the middle of writing a long-form essay on a similar topic. BigGrin

in the meantime,
I recommend you read the following;
(R Magritte, Baudrillard, JP Sartre, R Barthes, M Seidel, W Burroughs, Scott McCloud, D Hume, A Moore etc)
or, RedLetterMedia, SoA etc...
these go a long way to explaining what stratification and schisming is observed.


EDIT:
it can be productive to consider the question from Extrinsic (external to text),
Intrinsic ("in-universe"/meaning and semiotics etc).

also, at what point does something become a semblance of itself?
(the ship-of-theseus paradox).
at what point is something effacement?

this kinda stuff is not a new phenomena,
consider the Titanomachy Effacement etc.
M Groening et al were ahead of their time with that Futurama episode.
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 11:25:18 PM
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I think it is that people have put so much effort into knowing them.

not going to Lie, my son is named Cade

Straight up Cade Elias Cook.

Now that Cade Skywalker is literally no more. practically recanted the character as if he is nothing. I love that character!

I think the obsession comes from that. We know those characters and some are awesome and we a connection to them.

When that connection is just pulled from under you it sucks.
Think about if Revan is actually gone... does it take away from my first time playing KOTOR? absolutely?! It is a highlight of my Star Wars "life".
It feels like a betrayal.
Nomi Sunrider and Ulic is one of my favorite stories as well. I have done a lot to know those people they ar epart of my personal Star Wars history. I feel a part of the Star Wars verse through my knowledge of its characters.

Now all of a sudden you (not you, just anyone) know more than me about Star Wars cano?!?!
what?!? I have put a lot of time into these characters and now because you have read 4 books you are part of the Star Wars family more than I am?


I understand it and wish they didn't pull the plug 100% I understand why they had to and I think it is a good thing overall. But especially some of the OR stuff I wish they would keep. I also wish they had kept some of the names the same or not at all. I do not appreciate Han's son being named Ben when it was just Luke's son that was named Ben.

shmi15
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 12:55:53 AM
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
Let's phrase this another way.

I really am lost at why everyone is so obsessed with the new trilogy... It has some of the most idiotic things, mixed in with cool Force Users, and a few good back stories. So what is it that you love? And don't be vague, I want details about why you think it's the greatest thing you have ever seen, and that it's not just novelty. Because I am willing to bet for anything you can come up with you like, I can find something in that series that's completely stupid with bad writing/plot lines.


Challenge Issued!





I will break this down for you one by one.

I don't think everyone is obsessed, I actually think they are obsessed with hating it for no reason. Which is the point of this discussion!

Second sentence, this is what Star Wars is, idiotic things, mixed with Force Users, and some good back stories. And I could not be happier about that. I like how goofy it is, its why I fell in love with it as a kid.

Third Sentence, I love the idea that its unpredictable! I love the way it goes past just the Skywalker lineage. I love how it is killing my childhood heros one by one. I loved the fight scene with Rey/Kylo. I love that Snoke was killed by Kylo. I think it jumps his character into the big villain stage, and he is almost on par with Vader. I loved how Luke was so disgusted with his decision to kill Ben Solo, that he cut himself off from the Force, and was no longer a practicing Jedi. I also think Yoda being in there was awesome.

I did not like anything about Canto Bite, I could've done without it, kinda like I could've done with out any Ewoks, or Gungans, or the love story in episode 2.

I did not care for Rose's character really at all, BUT I did love that final line she says to Finn, and it may of been one of the most heart felt moments in all of Star Wars.

I know there was something else, but I can't think of it right this second :(


I think that covers it... So, now its to you Gandalf. Break it down! I gave you 8 things that I liked about Episode 8 alone, not even the entire trilogy! so give me 8 different things that are bad writing, and plot lines in it that make no sense, within episode 8. Its going to be pretty hard if you have no knowledge of the Disney Universe, so do your homework before you come in ;) I will wait!

I still haven't seen anyone answer my question about the EU! And I agree FlyingArrow, people will and should like what they like! But disliking it for no reason... Other than you read so EU books and consider them Doctrine, is not a real reason... Its just hanging on to your past, and not accepting the future!


Again, this is not meant to incite a riot or anger people, this is a civil discussion with hopefully passionate people who want to represent their side!
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:29:40 AM
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shmi15 wrote:
gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
Let's phrase this another way.

I really am lost at why everyone is so obsessed with the new trilogy... It has some of the most idiotic things, mixed in with cool Force Users, and a few good back stories. So what is it that you love? And don't be vague, I want details about why you think it's the greatest thing you have ever seen, and that it's not just novelty. Because I am willing to bet for anything you can come up with you like, I can find something in that series that's completely stupid with bad writing/plot lines.


Challenge Issued!





I will break this down for you one by one.

I don't think everyone is obsessed, I actually think they are obsessed with hating it for no reason. Which is the point of this discussion!

Second sentence, this is what Star Wars is, idiotic things, mixed with Force Users, and some good back stories. And I could not be happier about that. I like how goofy it is, its why I fell in love with it as a kid.

Third Sentence, I love the idea that its unpredictable! I love the way it goes past just the Skywalker lineage. I love how it is killing my childhood heros one by one. I loved the fight scene with Rey/Kylo. I love that Snoke was killed by Kylo. I think it jumps his character into the big villain stage, and he is almost on par with Vader. I loved how Luke was so disgusted with his decision to kill Ben Solo, that he cut himself off from the Force, and was no longer a practicing Jedi. I also think Yoda being in there was awesome.

I did not like anything about Canto Bite, I could've done without it, kinda like I could've done with out any Ewoks, or Gungans, or the love story in episode 2.

I did not care for Rose's character really at all, BUT I did love that final line she says to Finn, and it may of been one of the most heart felt moments in all of Star Wars.

I know there was something else, but I can't think of it right this second :(


I think that covers it... So, now its to you Gandalf. Break it down! I gave you 8 things that I liked about Episode 8 alone, not even the entire trilogy! so give me 8 different things that are bad writing, and plot lines in it that make no sense, within episode 8. Its going to be pretty hard if you have no knowledge of the Disney Universe, so do your homework before you come in ;) I will wait!

I still haven't seen anyone answer my question about the EU! And I agree FlyingArrow, people will and should like what they like! But disliking it for no reason... Other than you read so EU books and consider them Doctrine, is not a real reason... Its just hanging on to your past, and not accepting the future!


Again, this is not meant to incite a riot or anger people, this is a civil discussion with hopefully passionate people who want to represent their side!


The irony is that I haven't even bothered to see 8, because I generally have a low opinion of the Disney movies and have recently had better things to do with my time. I wasn't seriously issuing the challenge; you need not have answered. I simply restructured your original question to show that such arguments can go both ways. (I will reply after I've gotten around to seeing it, if you'd like me to.)

However, this rephrasing of the original post seems to me to have revealed a slight flaw in your argument (no offense). In the OP, you decried the EU as simply "some of the most idiotic things, mixed in with cool Force Users, and a few good back stories." Naturally, I kept this description in my post, but now describing the new movies. And how did you respond to that? "This is what Star Wars is", you said. "And I could not be happier about that." So it's one of your problems with the EU- but when applied to the Disney films, it's the natural form of Star Wars?

Furthermore, you say that the point of this discussion is to find out why people are obsessed with hating the newer movies for 'no reason', as you don't think people should do that. That's not what you originally stated (it was to find out why people liked the EU) but with that aside... Last I checked, it's a free world. People are allowed to dislike anything for any reason (including "considering the EU books doctrine") or no reason at all. If anything, you display by this thread your obsession with disliking the EU. Why do you need people to explain to you why they like things? Do we need to justify our likes and dislikes to you? You can't simply agree to disagree on how good each alternate canon is, and leave it at that? I think you should just respect the fact that people who like the EU, and dislike the new films, have their reasons for doing so, and will continue to do so regardless of this discussion. Have I started up topics asking people how they could possibly like the Disney movies, when I think they're so rubbish? Or asked how anyone could not like the EU when I believe it's so good? I haven't. Because I respect that other people can have opinions that I disagree with, for reasons that I disagree with.
kobayashimaru
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:14:29 AM
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@G T.G.W.
+1 BlooMilk BigGrin
well said in the middle of that last paragraph.

PT, OT, NuT, ExpandedUniverse etc,
it's all there for the n^X^! combinatorics hehe.
Lord Starkiller
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 4:11:31 AM
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I've liked the old EU and what you call ridiculous I say exciting as the EU allowed me to read stories unrelated to the Skywalker Saga that were just as compelling as the films like Delta Squad, Han and Leia's relationship, the origins of the Sith and Jedi, anthology books about Rouge Squadron, etc.

They all added unique things to the universe like The Vong.

I gave Disney a shot but after 8 and it's assassination of Luke's character I have little desire to continue following Disney canon and prefer how the old EU handled things. If you enjoy the new canon more power to you.

Darth Cadeus > Kylo Ren
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 4:17:06 AM
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Lord Starkiller wrote:
I've liked the old EU and what you call ridiculous I say exciting as the EU allowed me to read stories unrelated to the Skywalker Saga that were just as compelling as the films like Delta Squad, Han and Leia's relationship, the origins of the Sith and Jedi, anthology books about Rouge Squadron, etc.

They all added unique things to the universe like The Vong.

I gave Disney a shot but after 8 and it's assassination of Luke's character I have little desire to continue following Disney canon and prefer how the old EU handled things. If you enjoy the new canon more power to you.

Darth Cadeus > Kylo Ren


whoa!
I think you are rushing judgement on character assassination (its all the rage) but my large discretion is that Caedus is better then Kylo.

Caedus was a huge weak point for me. I despised his character and Jaina's.

becoming one with the force, killing mara with a dart, vergere in general and lumiya's role (i loved lumiya) were all very poorly done imo
Lord Starkiller
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 4:54:19 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
I think you are rushing judgement on character assassination (its all the rage) but my large discretion is that Caedus is better then Kylo.

Caedus was a huge weak point for me. I despised his character and Jaina's.

becoming one with the force, killing mara with a dart, vergere in general and lumiya's role (i loved lumiya) were all very poorly done imo


When even Mark Hamil is agreeing with me it's not but whatever.

See I disagree because Jacen had legitimate reasons and motivations to join the dark side like protecting his family and daughter as well as holding off Darth Kyrat and the drama of his older sister Jaina having to hunt and kill him. That and he had brushes with the dark side during the Vong War when he was held prisoner and tortured.

This is why I say Cadeus is superior to Kylo.
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 5:23:53 AM
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I read that from Mark Hamill.
But than again he said the same type time for empire strikes back. Have his yep best performances playing"someone else's Luke"

But in reality Mark Hamill is just another voice, it is not as if he knows where Luke would be more than anyone else at this point. This is made up from very little backstory


I am glad you like caedus. I like his powerful vset mini since it has been a staple competitive sith piece for a long time


Addition: I guess at the moment it is very hard to compare now that I am thinking about it.
I liked most of Jacen, but did not like caedus.

You are right about kylos reasons to join the dark side.
I am very curious about it and if it is not something kind of cool it would turn the tide. Right now we have some weird Vader idolization...
Naarkon
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:28:43 AM
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As someone who currently prefers the old EU to the current Disney canon, I will explain my reasoning.

First off, I don't hate the Disney stuff. I have not had enough time to read it all, but I have been very impressed with the quality of the books and comics that they have made. I was kinda unimpressed with 7, and I have not yet seen 8 since I have been travelling (so easy on the spoilers please).

There was SO MUCH material in the old EU that everyone probably had at least a few stories/characters that they really liked and are sad to see go, so as a reaction they like the new stuff that replaced their old favorites less. For me this was characters like the Hand of Judgement and all the characters from the X-wing books. I don't want their names showing up as easter eggs in later films or books (RIP Ben Skywalker), I like those characters how they were, so it's a bit depressing knowing that they are gone.

There was a lot of bad writing in the old EU, but there was also a lot of good writing, and not just 'good for star wars' writing. Republic commando, x-wing, basically anything by Timothy Zahn (thrawn, mara, karrde, hand of judgement, no stupidly massive superweapons), the kotor games, there was a lot to like in star wars even if you removed the star wars branding.

Last, I think some of the dislike for the new stuff that I have comes from a perceived attitude from those who prefer the newer stuff (sorry if this is wrong, it's just the impression I get sometimes) that the old EU should be wiped from existence. I understand that the old EU is not canon, but it still existed and had great stuff in it. I don't like being told to forget all the great stories I've read when all that the new regime has created (remember I haven't had the chance to read most of the new books/comic and haven't seen 8 yet) is a movie that a five year old with a crayon could have written right after seeing a new hope.
jak
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 7:04:22 AM
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didn't you hear? Mickey eliminated the EU!
frackin' rat barve!Cursing

to answer the OP Question.......the more Star Wars the better.
books, comics, video games, all help define our galaxy far far away.
new characters are interesting, and stories about the characters we know, help to fill them out,
and make them more whole.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 7:05:43 AM
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shmi15 wrote:
I don't think everyone is obsessed, I actually think they are obsessed with hating it for no reason.


My question is this: Why are there people on both sides of this that insist that it is some all or nothing decision? Why do people think that there are two 'sides'? I came out of VIII conflicted. That doesn't mean I have to reject it outright and sign some stupid petition demanding that it be removed from canon. It also doesn't mean that I have to accept scenes like the Mary Poppins Leia scene is good writing or even makes sense just because there IS good writing in VIII. There are more than two sides to this; it is multifaceted.

I liked the movie; I didn't love it. It is similar to the way I felt about V. I ended up ranking V as the best Star Wars movie ever, yet as far as my favorites it is second behind VI. Why? Personal bias. Yeah, we all have it. And yes, there are some of us who don't want to let go of the past. I wanted more for and from Luke. For the record, I rank VIII as third all time behind V and R1. I liked it better than only the prequels, however.

I can appreciate the feelings of people who have put a lot of their Star Wars love into the EU. I also recognize that there is a lot of crap there. For me, Thrawn is one of my favorite characters. So is Talon Karrde. Mara Jade will always be Skywalkers wife. I also accept the ending in VIII. I accept and have particpated in all of the criticism of the prequels, but at the same time I think that the scene where Anakin tells Padme what happened with the sand people is one of the best scenes ever in Star Wars. I accept the duality, the chaos, that Star Wars is now. I accept everything. I am a fan of the Star Wars saga. All of it.

Criticizing what I don't like doesn't mean I totally reject its source. It doesn't mean I 'hate' anything, unless I expressly say 'hate'. (Ok, I hate the Mary Poppins scene.) This isn't all or nothing to me. Star Wars has been a part of my life for 40 years, since I was 17. I will continue to enjoy it, and simply ignore the parts I don't. No one has to agree with my point of view...in fact, I hope they don't. I want it all, Mary Poppins scene included, to be cherished and enjoyed by fans.

That's all. Merry Christmas to all of my fellow Star Wars fans.
General_Grievous
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:16:41 AM
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Can I just say that I love your posts Koba! I always feel like I'm reading something incredibly intelligent and brings a smile to my face haha.

As for the EU, here is the really crazy part. I love all of it. The OT, PT, Clone Wars (cartoon and 3D), Rogue One, 7 and especially enjoyed 8. But also the EU. Books, comics, video games. KOTOR, NJO (especially the Vong those guys rocked!), Abeloth and Legacy comics! The EU rocked and for many years that's what we were going on. It fleshed out the characters, added fantastic new ones and whole new eras. And kept things alive, plus you alwasy felt like you had inside knowledge on the SW universe since it was reviewed by Lucasfilm, and made canon. Now with it all in the air, well that sucks for all of the stories we had. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the new movies. They're great. I just don't really care to read books anymore if they are just going to be made not-canon on a whim again. But hope that explains it.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:36:45 AM
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Good point. If canon can be reset once it can be reset again.
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