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2.0 - What would you want from a reboot? Options
adamb0nd
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 11:22:14 AM
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FFG has announced that they are going to be releasing a 2.0 game. They are releasing conversion kits that allow players to use their existing collection with the cards for 2.0. The new game looks to be streamlined and fixed up, correcting many of the issues with 1.0.

That being said, what would you want from a 2.0? Assuming a reboot that keeps the spirit of the game, what mechanical changes could improve or streamline the game?

My personal preference would be:

-Cleanup/reworking of Targeting rules: This would include options to maybe target unoccupied squares for hitting characters out of LOS, but around corners. I never cared much for how stealth works, and feel a reworking of rules could

-Pricing update to characters.

-Cleaning up of special abilities- giving character with lightsaber block and deflect light saber defense instead, etc.

-expanding on vehicle rules. make larges more of a threat, which making them more playable.



TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 12:07:57 PM
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Say whaaaaaaaaa?
TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 12:09:22 PM
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Need link
TheHutts
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 12:21:21 PM
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I'm assuming the original post was a hypothetical question.
General_Grievous
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 12:22:01 PM
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I'll start by saying I'm pretty happy with the game as is, and with our community as small as it is and no money to be made, it doesn't really make sense to create a brand new game. As long as we only release a few characters each year and try to keep them from becoming to complex that would work for me.

Now for thought experiment sake what I would be more open too is something like different Formats. So for example we have Legacy format which has access to everything and whatever is added to future sets. And then what would be cool is a Heroes Format (call it whatever you want) and this could be one of two things:

-specifically rotated pieces, pick something like an arbitrary number like 3-12 Unique specific characters, and 3-12 specific non-uniques (personally I'm cool with 3 of each per faction), things that thematically work together and maybe even more specifically you could say only WOTC +2 VSET pieces or something like that. And keep this rotation for an entire year, have small tournaments for it, and at the end of the year November time vote/decide on a new "Legal list" for the following year which begins Jan 1st. Obviously it would have to be balanced enough that each faction could compete. This would be a great introductionary format and we could really open up some new squad designs when you eliminate the usual power 11 pieces of the faction.


Alternatively a 2.0 would be trickier to pull off and could fracture players if handled incorrectly, but treated like a different format like the above listed one but instead it's creating a new set that is legal for the year, say 3 pieces per faction and each year only three pieces (one unique and two non-unique per faction) similar to the last sep/republic set where they work together on their own but also fit into the larger legacy game.

What I would like for this 2.0 is cheaper, simpler characters in 100 point squads. Take me back to the Rebel Storm days and let's get back to the basics. Core rules is that larger based characters always displace smaller characters with maybe a save for 10 damage. And all force users can use force points for move faster, reroll dice or avoid/reduce damage received. These simpler characters would fit into our overall larger game due to being much lower cost in comparison. Example a 20-30 point Vader with just triple attack and one force power.
General_Grievous
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 12:47:09 PM
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Also pretty sure that OP is talking about X-Wing 2.0 and the hypothetical question about our game needing/getting one.
TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 1:19:15 PM
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Oh - US doing 2.0

No.




Just no.
General_Grievous
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 1:53:38 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Oh - US doing 2.0

No.




Just no.



Hahahaha yes this is my main thought.
adamb0nd
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 4:50:08 AM
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Yes. "IF" we did a 2.0 (like FFG's X-Wing "IS" doing), how would a reboot look? What doesn't work with the game, or could be done to make the game run more smoothly, while not taking away tactical choices.

Edit: just realized I omitted the word X-Wing from my original post. I'm an idiot. FFG is releasing a 2.0 Xwing, not SWM. However, they do have legion 1.0 that was just released, which does appear to be on scale with SMW (though it is mechanically a different game). Sorry for the confusion!
adamb0nd
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 4:52:00 AM
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General_Grievous wrote:

What I would like for this 2.0 is cheaper, simpler characters in 100 point squads. Take me back to the Rebel Storm days and let's get back to the basics. Core rules is that larger based characters always displace smaller characters with maybe a save for 10 damage. And all force users can use force points for move faster, reroll dice or avoid/reduce damage received. These simpler characters would fit into our overall larger game due to being much lower cost in comparison. Example a 20-30 point Vader with just triple attack and one force power.


Thanks. I understand the reasons the v-set team wouldn't want a reboot. This is mostly a thought experiment. Your final sentence hit exactly the kind if thing I was asking for. thanks.
DarkDracul
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 5:52:30 AM
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I like these . . .


In my 2.0 version of SWM. . .
I'd have non-unique characters play in Units with character limits depending on rarity.
Units that as a group act like Unique characters in skirmish games while also allowing for quick and fun mass battles.
Ronson
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 6:36:19 AM
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So many things I would want.
1. Simplified rules
2. Simplified characters. Characters now-a-days have way to many abilities.
3. Fix the issue with force users having to spend a force point to block (lightsaber block) while non-force users can do it all the time (parry).
4. Take a look at FFGs Imperial Assualt. I like this game better, but that game is more simple and streamlined.
5. This would piss a lot of people off, but if you are going to make a switch to 2.0 I think it makes sense to jump to using the new canon.
6. Fix the stealth/accurate shot garbage.
7. Give Jedi and force users with Melee only some advantage over shooters. I like in IA that range is calculated in to attaching. I also think users with rifles should have less accurate against against enemies.
8. I think it would be cool to introduce weapons. In stead of just Melee or not Melee say what the weapon is and different weapons have different attributes. Rey's bo-staff is not the same as a lightsaber. Also, how is Han doing as much damage with a blaster pistol as some character's are with a blaster rifle.

I think the people who have been doing the V-Sets do a much better job that WotC ever did, so I would welcome a 2.0 to get rid of the garbage that Wizards made. Don't get me wrong, they started off great, but in the end things were getting crazy.
thereisnotry
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 7:26:30 AM
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Yes, this is a hypothetical thought experiment, and I think it can make for a good discussion. Hypothetically, I would change a few things:

- Only have a single Evade/Soresu/Shien ability, and only a single Parry/Makashi/whatever ability. One works vs non-adjacent attacks, while the other works vs ALL attacks from adjacent enemies (whether with blasters or melee weapons). Attacks with a Lightsaber are melee attacks...whether or not the character has the Melee Attack ability.
- NO damage stacking. Add a simple rule: Characters can only benefit from a single damage boost at any given point; if a character has access to several damage boosts, it must choose which one to use before making the attack. No Cunning 20 and Advantageous 10 and Momentum 10 and Prideful 10 silliness.
- Completely remove Twin Attack. There's no good reason for it, other than to amplify the damage output of the pieces that have it. Way back when the Bounty Hunters set introduced the ability, I remember commenting that the game has now fundamentally changed (for the worse). Up until then, damage-scaling wasn't off the charts...but ever since then, damage scaling has been a big issue.
- Add the ability to Pass. Or SOMETHING. Maybe Passing isn't the answer, and that's fine; but something to prevent the massive NPE that is out-activate-and-smash. I like the idea of using Deployment Groups of non-Unique figures, and that they activate as a group. Imperial Assault does this and it works really well...IA also has the Pass rule too, FWIW.
- Add some sort of displacement rule to the Diminutive ability. And yes, definitely include Diminutive from the start. It's really annoying that a wookiee can't get adjacent to Cad Bane because a Mouse Droid is in the way.
- Include NO Cost on character cards! Instead, have all the costs for all characters listed on an app/website. X-Wing 2.0 is doing this, and I think it's brilliant. Now they can hot-fix ships/cards that end up being too powerful, and easily balance the meta if something ends up being broken or overpowered. This allows designers to create a card as it should be, and not worry so much about the cost...playtesting determines the cost...and if adjustments need to be made because something is too strong or too weak, it's an easy fix. Changes are obviously carefully considered and announced in plenty of time before major tournaments. I honestly think that ANY competitive skirmish game would be foolish not to use this approach from this point onward.

Those are just core rules that I'd change. Obviously there are pieces that we'd all like to change too, but I'd suggest that the problem pieces are more symptomatic of flaws that are deeper in the game system itself.

However, with all that being said, I still think that SWM is a superb game. Until I started playing Imperial Assault, it was hands-down the BEST game I'd ever played!


Oh yeah, I'd change one more thing: Tell WotC to never stop producing the game! lol
surf_rider56
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 8:52:04 AM
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Simplify, Simplify, Simplify.

Simplify the rules all the way around; Melee/Targeting/Movement/etc

Simply the characters, number of abilities, capabilities, costs, etc.

Simplify the cards; we've got so much writing we can't even read them anymore.

This discussion could take forever and other than as an intellectual exercise, would it accomplish much?
jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 9:14:20 AM
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If we did anything I would restart from ground zero.
I would make only Canon pieces at this point.
I would make it so that sets can rotate.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 12:35:48 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
If we did anything I would restart from ground zero.
I would make only Canon pieces at this point.
I would make it so that sets can rotate.


I wouldn't play that game.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 1:23:14 PM
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While wiping the slate clean and starting with a new batch of V-sets isn't unheard of (It happened with both the Star Wars and Star Trek CCGs by Decipher), I think we've gotten a little too far past the point where we can easily turn back.

What I can see is releasing 2.0 versions of individual V-Set expansions, which would keep the bulk of the figures the same, but changing up/removing/replacing the problem characters or tweaking the ones that just fell flat.
jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2018 1:56:33 PM
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
If we did anything I would restart from ground zero.
I would make only Canon pieces at this point.
I would make it so that sets can rotate.


I wouldn't play that game.


Not would lots of people. The discussion is kind of like that tbh.
TN play group years ago made their own version called legends.
It kept all of with and a few vsets pieces and made their own pieces after that.

Tbh it is the most fun I have ever had playing swm.
Banned activation control
No Vong
Banned ysalamiri (before it was changed to the way it is now)
Full board ce's were always range 6.
Change a few of the "silly rules" (lightsabers are adjacent, more droids didn't provide cover)

The 60 piece set was very melee friendly and had fun force powers.


A few people played in the Vassal tournaments, but not a lot. People have put too much time, hard work, and energy into the vsets to really go away from them too much.

I have more problems with wotc Staples and 25-40 cost twin attack pieces from vsets than anything else.

I would still love to see yearly "bans" on certain tier 1 or tier 1.5 pieces just to see what else can be played.
I think that is the second best option IF a change was going to happen.

It does not even have to be set in stone. Just an annual tournament where certain things are banned. For fun.
coffeebean
Posted: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:10:34 PM
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thereisnotry wrote:
Yes, this is a hypothetical thought experiment, and I think it can make for a good discussion. Hypothetically, I would change a few things:

- Only have a single Evade/Soresu/Shien ability, and only a single Parry/Makashi/whatever ability. One works vs non-adjacent attacks, while the other works vs ALL attacks from adjacent enemies (whether with blasters or melee weapons). Attacks with a Lightsaber are melee attacks...whether or not the character has the Melee Attack ability.
- NO damage stacking. Add a simple rule: Characters can only benefit from a single damage boost at any given point; if a character has access to several damage boosts, it must choose which one to use before making the attack. No Cunning 20 and Advantageous 10 and Momentum 10 and Prideful 10 silliness.
- Completely remove Twin Attack. There's no good reason for it, other than to amplify the damage output of the pieces that have it. Way back when the Bounty Hunters set introduced the ability, I remember commenting that the game has now fundamentally changed (for the worse). Up until then, damage-scaling wasn't off the charts...but ever since then, damage scaling has been a big issue.
- Add the ability to Pass. Or SOMETHING. Maybe Passing isn't the answer, and that's fine; but something to prevent the massive NPE that is out-activate-and-smash. I like the idea of using Deployment Groups of non-Unique figures, and that they activate as a group. Imperial Assault does this and it works really well...IA also has the Pass rule too, FWIW.
- Add some sort of displacement rule to the Diminutive ability. And yes, definitely include Diminutive from the start. It's really annoying that a wookiee can't get adjacent to Cad Bane because a Mouse Droid is in the way.
- Include NO Cost on character cards! Instead, have all the costs for all characters listed on an app/website. X-Wing 2.0 is doing this, and I think it's brilliant. Now they can hot-fix ships/cards that end up being too powerful, and easily balance the meta if something ends up being broken or overpowered. This allows designers to create a card as it should be, and not worry so much about the cost...playtesting determines the cost...and if adjustments need to be made because something is too strong or too weak, it's an easy fix. Changes are obviously carefully considered and announced in plenty of time before major tournaments. I honestly think that ANY competitive skirmish game would be foolish not to use this approach from this point onward.

Those are just core rules that I'd change. Obviously there are pieces that we'd all like to change too, but I'd suggest that the problem pieces are more symptomatic of flaws that are deeper in the game system itself.

However, with all that being said, I still think that SWM is a superb game. Until I started playing Imperial Assault, it was hands-down the BEST game I'd ever played!


Oh yeah, I'd change one more thing: Tell WotC to never stop producing the game! lol


This
General_Grievous
Posted: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 7:52:49 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
If we did anything I would restart from ground zero.
I would make only Canon pieces at this point.
I would make it so that sets can rotate.


I wouldn't play that game.


Not would lots of people. The discussion is kind of like that tbh.
TN play group years ago made their own version called legends.
It kept all of with and a few vsets pieces and made their own pieces after that.

Tbh it is the most fun I have ever had playing swm.
Banned activation control
No Vong
Banned ysalamiri (before it was changed to the way it is now)
Full board ce's were always range 6.
Change a few of the "silly rules" (lightsabers are adjacent, more droids didn't provide cover)

The 60 piece set was very melee friendly and had fun force powers.


A few people played in the Vassal tournaments, but not a lot. People have put too much time, hard work, and energy into the vsets to really go away from them too much.

I have more problems with wotc Staples and 25-40 cost twin attack pieces from vsets than anything else.

I would still love to see yearly "bans" on certain tier 1 or tier 1.5 pieces just to see what else can be played.
I think that is the second best option IF a change was going to happen.

It does not even have to be set in stone. Just an annual tournament where certain things are banned. For fun.


I wouldn't play a game with no Vong either, and I also much prefer the "legends" world to modern Disney-verse. Heck one of the things I enjoy most about this game and stick around for is to play with Kyle Katarn, Sev'rance Tann, fringe warlord Grievous, Jacen/Jaina, Galen Marek/Juno Eclipse, Jarael and Zayne, Legacy comic characters, and the amazing Vong. The old universe was so rich with lore and awesomeness that I and the rest of us Northern Canadians would break with any outright removal of the old.

I do think your second half hit it on the head and it would be interesting to see some piece rotation and what that would do, take out the 5 best pieces in each faction and see what's left haha. Don't call it banning though just call it rotated out to celebrate their awesomeness for a year. And for sure there are also random weird rules that could have been clarified from the start (and still could be without rebooting a game) but if we rebooted a game every time the rules changed we'd be in a pretty ridiculous state.

Biggest problem with right now is that we don't have the player base to completely reboot a game or make drastic changes so I'm cool with the massive collection and near unlimited variety we have, it's almost like having a skirmish game set in an RPG universe where anything and anyone is possible. This is one of he only parts of Star Wars these days I truly enjoy.

In closing something cool as a compromise is a league that runs from say post gencon to the end of the year December that has special squad-building rules, some examples are:

-Only one Commander per squad
-Uniques Only
-Non-uniques Only
-WOTC + X number of VSET pieces (or even squad must contain exactly half of each)
-Epics Legal for 200 points!!! (We already do this in the North for non-tourney play, great times)

Then having regionals for that and a vassal final for the end of the year. Anyways that's my two cents.
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