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Honestly, if we were to ban or change any pieces, my vote would be for Dodonna and Ozzel. Like jen’ari pointed out, they are a common piece in a lot of gencon squads. Thrawn is insanely powerful and efficient, but you can make counters that are still interactive and it is possible to outplay him or to make a mistake using him. Additionally, we can make powerful pieces to compete with him in the same space.
Act control is just nuts. You can’t interact with it, you can just shut it off if you have one of like three pieces in your squad. And then you sit there with a fully activated squad while your opponent has spun 3 uggies and two tech pieces then literally never move. A key aspect of the game SHOULD be I activate some, you activate some, not I activate all of mine, you activate all of yours. It’s just made worse that Act control is in factions that already are often close to out activating.
TL:DR I hate tech that spins in a back room with no interaction, but Thrawn at least provides interaction and movement.
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Naarkon wrote:Honestly, if we were to ban or change any pieces, my vote would be for Dodonna and Ozzel. Like jen’ari pointed out, they are a common piece in a lot of gencon squads. Thrawn is insanely powerful and efficient, but you can make counters that are still interactive and it is possible to outplay him or to make a mistake using him. Additionally, we can make powerful pieces to compete with him in the same space.
Act control is just nuts. You can’t interact with it, you can just shut it off if you have one of like three pieces in your squad. And then you sit there with a fully activated squad while your opponent has spun 3 uggies and two tech pieces then literally never move. A key aspect of the game SHOULD be I activate some, you activate some, not I activate all of mine, you activate all of yours. It’s just made worse that Act control is in factions that already are often close to out activating.
TL:DR I hate tech that spins in a back room with no interaction, but Thrawn at least provides interaction and movement. I have been an Imp player since 2004, and I have to say that I'm moving toward agreeing with you and jen here. Either ban activation control ( Dodonna, Ozzel, and San Hill ), or designers, make a 9 pt mini counter. It's time for a change in the meta. It's totally boring, stale, overplayed, and the same blasted factions have been winning pretty much every year ( Imps and Rebels ) 
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Over the years, we've lost a lot of SWM players at my LGS, and a lot of the quitting players, mostly all hated activation control, and thought it was pretty cheesy play. As a previous CA regional winner of activation control squads, I would like to see a major change. This, IMHO, would help a lot of the other factions 
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DarthMaim wrote:Over the years, we've lost a lot of SWM players at my LGS, and a lot of the quitting players, mostly all hated activation control, and thought it was pretty cheesy play. As a previous CA regional winner of activation control squads, I would like to see a major change. This, IMHO, would help a lot of the other factions My biggest issue with it is that it just doesn’t make sense, thematically or mechanically. It breaks a key aspect of the game and gives one player a massive, uncounterable advantage. I don’t want a fringe tech piece to counter it, thats 10 points in Sith that I can’t use to get Big Bad Dudes with Red Lightsabers(TM). You know, the fun part of the game.
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So am I to understand. That after years of complaining of act control and Imps, and after being alienated for being years ahead of the curve, more people are jumping on board? This seems like a repeat process. We complain about the same things... get made fun of and told " just beat it" and then... come to find out, no one beats it, because it's to powerful. Maybe.... just maybe you guys will put your egos aside, and realize the best thing for this game, is....
To just take our advice. We've been right all along.
Prophet #1
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Let's face it, Thrawn is good. But why should we ban a piece that is contributing to good squads? If we ban this piece then something will come back up (Daala etc) and we will be faced with the same issue. Instead, I suggest we offer a challenge to the V-Set designers, make V-Set 19 a rebalance set. Build pieces that will help the already powerful pieces out there. Instead of just sweeping them under the carpet.
If we focus on re-balancing the game by adding new pieces then we can still enjoy our game. To remove Thrawn leads us down a path of even less innovation. Part of the argument here is that there is no innovation in this game anymore, that is because when we have a squad that wins consistently we do not build pieces to help us rival that, we simply ban it and watch the level of the game deteriorate around us as we just continue to ban pieces that win. It is a slippery slope and it will end badly.
That's my two cents cheers.
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In the current case, map is/was probably more of a deciding factor. On Randy’s map he won in Swiss. On train station in the finals the door games were apparently too much
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There's always an excuse or reason for everything...
Fact: 4 out of 5 had Ozzel
5 out 5 had act control.....
We can pretend like it's "circumstantial" but that would be ignorant.
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UnwillingWinter wrote:Let's face it, Thrawn is good. But why should we ban a piece that is contributing to good squads? If we ban this piece then something will come back up (Daala etc) and we will be faced with the same issue. Instead, I suggest we offer a challenge to the V-Set designers, make V-Set 19 a rebalance set. Build pieces that will help the already powerful pieces out there. Instead of just sweeping them under the carpet.
If we focus on re-balancing the game by adding new pieces then we can still enjoy our game. To remove Thrawn leads us down a path of even less innovation. Part of the argument here is that there is no innovation in this game anymore, that is because when we have a squad that wins consistently we do not build pieces to help us rival that, we simply ban it and watch the level of the game deteriorate around us as we just continue to ban pieces that win. It is a slippery slope and it will end badly.
That's my two cents cheers. Sorry bud, don't buy your argument. Scoreboard: Thrawn = 6 championships! Daala = 1. The only other argument I can agree with is activation control. Dodonna = 3 championships. Ozzel = 4 championships ( Atmsalad's squad could bring in Ozzel thanks to Pellaeon )
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DarthMaim wrote:UnwillingWinter wrote:Let's face it, Thrawn is good. But why should we ban a piece that is contributing to good squads? If we ban this piece then something will come back up (Daala etc) and we will be faced with the same issue. Instead, I suggest we offer a challenge to the V-Set designers, make V-Set 19 a rebalance set. Build pieces that will help the already powerful pieces out there. Instead of just sweeping them under the carpet.
If we focus on re-balancing the game by adding new pieces then we can still enjoy our game. To remove Thrawn leads us down a path of even less innovation. Part of the argument here is that there is no innovation in this game anymore, that is because when we have a squad that wins consistently we do not build pieces to help us rival that, we simply ban it and watch the level of the game deteriorate around us as we just continue to ban pieces that win. It is a slippery slope and it will end badly.
That's my two cents cheers. Sorry bud, don't buy your argument. Scoreboard: Thrawn = 6 championships! Daala = 1. The only other argument I can agree with is activation control. Dodonna = 3 championships. Ozzel = 4 championships ( Atmsalad's squad could bring in Ozzel thanks to Pellaeon ) I count 3 GenCon championships for Thrawn: 2015, 2018, 2019. All three with Pellaeon. Swap and Ysalamiri are both really powerful. Daala has 1 (2017). What other 3 did you have? Counting championship game appearances, each adds one more: 2014 for Daala and 2010 for Thrawn. https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Competitive_Star_Wars_Miniatures_Squads#
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DarthMaim wrote:UnwillingWinter wrote:Let's face it, Thrawn is good. But why should we ban a piece that is contributing to good squads? If we ban this piece then something will come back up (Daala etc) and we will be faced with the same issue. Instead, I suggest we offer a challenge to the V-Set designers, make V-Set 19 a rebalance set. Build pieces that will help the already powerful pieces out there. Instead of just sweeping them under the carpet.
If we focus on re-balancing the game by adding new pieces then we can still enjoy our game. To remove Thrawn leads us down a path of even less innovation. Part of the argument here is that there is no innovation in this game anymore, that is because when we have a squad that wins consistently we do not build pieces to help us rival that, we simply ban it and watch the level of the game deteriorate around us as we just continue to ban pieces that win. It is a slippery slope and it will end badly.
That's my two cents cheers. Sorry bud, don't buy your argument. Scoreboard: Thrawn = 6 championships! Daala = 1. The only other argument I can agree with is activation control. Dodonna = 3 championships. Ozzel = 4 championships ( Atmsalad's squad could bring in Ozzel thanks to Pellaeon ) Pretty sure his post was that if you ban Thrawn, Daala will be the new Thrawn and will be the best squad build. So there is no point in banning characters because there will always be a character that is top tier and will win GenCons and cause discussions like these. Thrawn is just better than Daala.
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kiki wrote:DarthMaim wrote:UnwillingWinter wrote:Let's face it, Thrawn is good. But why should we ban a piece that is contributing to good squads? If we ban this piece then something will come back up (Daala etc) and we will be faced with the same issue. Instead, I suggest we offer a challenge to the V-Set designers, make V-Set 19 a rebalance set. Build pieces that will help the already powerful pieces out there. Instead of just sweeping them under the carpet.
If we focus on re-balancing the game by adding new pieces then we can still enjoy our game. To remove Thrawn leads us down a path of even less innovation. Part of the argument here is that there is no innovation in this game anymore, that is because when we have a squad that wins consistently we do not build pieces to help us rival that, we simply ban it and watch the level of the game deteriorate around us as we just continue to ban pieces that win. It is a slippery slope and it will end badly.
That's my two cents cheers. Sorry bud, don't buy your argument. Scoreboard: Thrawn = 6 championships! Daala = 1. The only other argument I can agree with is activation control. Dodonna = 3 championships. Ozzel = 4 championships ( Atmsalad's squad could bring in Ozzel thanks to Pellaeon ) Pretty sure his post was that if you ban Thrawn, Daala will be the new Thrawn and will be the best squad build. So there is no point in banning characters because there will always be a character that is top tier and will win GenCons and cause discussions like these. Thrawn is just better than Daala. Scoreboard man! Thrawn is waay better than Daala, or else Daala would have waay more championships  . There is always going to be the next best squad conversation. My point is a change is needed, so the same main commander isn't winning practically every year
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I digress. I am actually leaning more towards having the balance committee look at errat'ing activation control, which I believe would make a much bigger impact on the meta ( IMHO ). Please see my posts in the "Balance Committee Suggestions". 
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FlyingArrow wrote:DarthMaim wrote:UnwillingWinter wrote:Let's face it, Thrawn is good. But why should we ban a piece that is contributing to good squads? If we ban this piece then something will come back up (Daala etc) and we will be faced with the same issue. Instead, I suggest we offer a challenge to the V-Set designers, make V-Set 19 a rebalance set. Build pieces that will help the already powerful pieces out there. Instead of just sweeping them under the carpet.
If we focus on re-balancing the game by adding new pieces then we can still enjoy our game. To remove Thrawn leads us down a path of even less innovation. Part of the argument here is that there is no innovation in this game anymore, that is because when we have a squad that wins consistently we do not build pieces to help us rival that, we simply ban it and watch the level of the game deteriorate around us as we just continue to ban pieces that win. It is a slippery slope and it will end badly.
That's my two cents cheers. Sorry bud, don't buy your argument. Scoreboard: Thrawn = 6 championships! Daala = 1. The only other argument I can agree with is activation control. Dodonna = 3 championships. Ozzel = 4 championships ( Atmsalad's squad could bring in Ozzel thanks to Pellaeon ) I count 3 GenCon championships for Thrawn: 2015, 2018, 2019. All three with Pellaeon. Swap and Ysalamiri are both really powerful. Daala has 1 (2017). What other 3 did you have? Counting championship game appearances, each adds one more: 2014 for Daala and 2010 for Thrawn. https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Competitive_Star_Wars_Miniatures_Squads# I stand corrected. Thanks "Flying". Thrawn "Mithorondu" = 3! Daala = 1
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My issue is that people's reactions here show a lack of character and innovation. We cannot just ban pieces because they win. Look at any other sport, do they ban the best players that win, no. Instead, they train up new players to take their places. The way we follow this is to make more competitive pieces. Let people play Thrawn, Ozzel, and Daala. Just let there be viable options in addition to them.
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UnwillingWinter wrote:My issue is that people's reactions here show a lack of character and innovation. We cannot just ban pieces because they win. Look at any other sport, do they ban the best players that win, no. Instead, they train up new players to take their places. The way we follow this is to make more competitive pieces. Let people play Thrawn, Ozzel, and Daala. Just let there be viable options in addition to them. Actually they do. The NBA blocked trades before. Secondly, leagues actually do do things about unbalance.... Thirdly, it had been 5 years of the same ol same ol. It seems designers do not know how to make meta affecting pieces. If we are honest with ourselves the meta right now is thrawn is daala.
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Okay!
So, I've started doing the NZ numbers as I'm keen to add some data to this argument from our perspective over here. In the past we banned Daala for a whole year because she won everything - like everything! - in her first year out, and we've banned Morrigan in a few select tournaments here this year (St Bernard's College Tournaments). I just don't like her and her NPE-ness... but, I have realised that I should actually do some numbers and find out if its in my head or real. One key thing here though is that I am really only looking at this from a New Zealand perspective - I have no intention to suggest that I'm speaking beyond our borders. Take this with a grain of salt.
To start with, here are some raw numbers. I record almost everything that officially happens with SWM in NZ - have done for the last ten years (Excel rules) - but I sometimes miss some map/faction/squad data. I do, however, have a lot of info and I think I have enough to work out some stuff. Anyhoo, below is year-by-year of Faction details (games, W-L, %) and the winners of the Major Swiss Tournaments over that time period and their squads.
2009-2012
I grouped this lot together because we were feeling things out as far as competitive minis is concerned. Plus, we hadn't really had enough games year-by-year to be statistically enough. Anyhoo, here we go.
OR: 84 (40-44) 48%
Sith: 75 (26-49) 35%
Republic: 151 (93-58) 62%
Separatist: 124 (58-66) 47%
Rebel: 129 (53-76) 41%
Imperial: 63 (36-27) 57%
NR: 113 (63-50) 56%
Fringe: 9 (5-4) 56%
Mando: 13 (8-5) 62%
Vong: 39 (23-16) 59%
Major Finalists
HaweraCon2010 (2010-2011, 150pts) Graham ran Republic [Yobuck/Rex/Dash/R2/Wicket]
LowerHuttaCon2010 (2010-2011, 200pts) Aaron ran New Republic [Mara/Ganner]
HaweraCon2011 (2011-2012, 150pts) Graham ran Republic [MaceLotLS/Rex/Ferus/R2/Ugx3/MDx2]
LowerHuttaCon2012 (2011-2012, 200pts) Graham ran Republic [Rex/Windu/GOWK/Ferus Olin/R2-D2]
NZ Championship 2012 (2011-2012, 200pts) Graham ran Republic [MonMothma/Panaka/KlaatCapt/Amidala/Mas/8xNabooPilots/Yularen/R2]
2012 – Set4 (welcome Morrigan Corde!)
Morrigan arrives on the scene and within the year wins her first Major. Congrats little lady!
OR: 48 (23-25) 48%
Sith: 63 (31-32) 49%
Republic: 100 (49-51) 49%
Separatist: 64 (33-31) 52%
Rebel: 29 (12-17) 41%
Imperial: 34 (23-11) 68%
NR: 55 (29-26) 53%
Fringe: 1 (1-0) 100%
Mando: 34 (16-18) 47%
Vong: 34 (14-20) 41%
HaweraCon2012 (2012-2013, 150pts) Graham ran New Republic [Ganner/IG-88s]
HamilCon 2013 (2012-2013, 200pts) Bevan ran Imperial [Thrawn/Mas/Lobot/Mighella/NS Mother/NS/Evazan/KDBH/2 Klaat Ass]
NZ Championship 2013 (2012-2013, 200pts) Daman ran Imperial [Cad Bane/Thrawn/Morrigan/Lobot/Pellaeon/Ozzel]
2013 – Set6 (welcome to Talon Kaarde!)
We welcome Fringe as a real thing (even though Fringe isn't a faction...) thanks to a wild card (see what I did there?). Daala, however, arrived as well and saw that Talon had no say in the data.
OR: 14 (6-8) 43%
Sith: 35 (16-19) 46%
Republic: 38 (15-23) 39%
Separatist: 52 (24-28) 46%
Rebel: 27 (12-15) 44%
Imperial: 73 (53-20) 73%
NR: 35 (17-18) 49%
Fringe: 42 (22-20) 52%
Mando: 23 (7-16) 30%
Vong: 23 (13-10) 57%
HaweraCon2013 (2013-2014, 150pts) Paul ran Imperial [Daala/GARY/Piett/Mas/SnowtrooperOfficer/Slaver/bunch of Snowtroopers]
LowerHuttaCon 2014 (2013-2014, 200pts) Daman ran Imperial [Daala/Piett/Pellaeon/Gary/Sled/12xRaxus]
NZ Championship 2014 (2013-2014, 200pts) Daman ran Imperial [Daala/Raxusx12/ImpOff/StormieSled]
2014 - Set8
I think this is the only time I mention a beaten finalist, but I thought it was noteworthy.
OR: 16 (7-9) 44%
Sith: 20 (9-11) 45%
Republic: 74 (34-40) 46%
Separatist: 55 (34-21) 62%
Rebel: 19 (6-13) 32%
Imperial: 39 (23-16) 59%
NR: 37 (18-19) 49%
Fringe: 25 (12-13) 48%
Mando: 20 (9-11) 45%
Vong: 41 (21-20) 51%
HaweraCon2014 (2014-2015, 150pts) Mike ran Separatist [DurgeSpeeder/Lobot/BXSpotter/BXSniper/San/Poggle/Drones]
HamilCon 2015 (2014-2015, 200pts) Daman ran Republic [MonMothma/Yularen/PadawanCom/PancakeTheed/QueenArmadillo/R2/Mas/10xNabooTroops/7xNabooSoldiers/] (Paul ran BobaAFH/Talon/Tyber/Morrigan/Lobot/Marn – beaten finalist)
LowerHuttaCon 2015 (2014-2015, 200pts) Paul ran Imperial [BobaAFH/Thrawn/Mira/Lobot/ImpGov/Ozzel/Mas]
NZ Championship 2015 (2014-2015, 200pts) Graham ran Imperial [Thrawn/BobaAFH/Lobot/Imp.Gov./Marn/Amanin/Ozzel/Mas]
2015 - Set10
Quiet year due to some drama that was not SWMNZ related. We did have one major though and it struck the right chord.
OR: 14 (7-7) 50%
Sith: 17 (8-9) 47%
Republic: 18 (10-8) 56%
Separatist: 19 (10-9) 53%
Rebel: 16 (3-13) 19%
Imperial: 19 (9-10) 47%
NR: 14 (8-6) 57%
Fringe: 8 (4-4) 50%
Mando: 7 (6-1) 86%
Vong: 16 (9-7) 56%
NZ Championship 2016 (2016, 200pts) Daman ran [Thrawn
/Morrigan/CadBane]
2016&2017 - Set12&14
Two years here again because of the low numbers, but I mention a beaten finalist for a second time - because it was Talon and Morrigan again!
OR: 14 (7-7) 50%
Sith: 18 (5-13) 28%
Republic: 45 (20-25) 44%
Separatist: 17 (9-8) 53%
Rebel: 36 (19-17) 53%
Imperial: 47 (27-20) 57%
NR: 37 (19-18) 51%
Fringe: 34 (22-12) 65%
Mando: 17 (6-11) 35%
Vong: 13 (7-6) 50%
SWAGcon (2017, 200pts) Graham ran Rebel [LukeHOE/KyleRH/LandoInfil/Princess/Artoo/Jan/Rieekan/Dodonna/Juno/ObiJS] (No Thrawn or Talon or Morrigan)
LowerHuttaCon2017 (2017, 200pts) Mike ran Imperial [Krennic/Hux/Kylo/Snoke/4x Death Troopers/TK-421] (Ian ran Talon/FettAFH/Tyber/Morrigan/Embo – beaten semi-finalist by Mike)
LowerHuttaCon2018 (2017-2018, 200pts) Daman ran Imperial [Thraws/Morrigan/CadBane]
NZ Championship 2018 (2017-2018, 200pts) Mike ran Fringe [BobaAFH/Talon/Morrigan]
2018 - Set16
No Majors this year and very few games. I've also banned Morrigan for two of the bigger minor events so she won't inflate any numbers... although Daala has featured.
OR: 5 (1-4) 20%
Sith: 12 (8-4) 67%
Republic: 15 (8-7) 53%
Separatist: 9 (3-6) 33%
Rebel: 24 (10-14) 42%
Imperial: 22 (13-9) 59%
NR: 7 (2-5) 29%
Fringe: 13 (10-3) 77%
Mando: 16 (6-10) 38%
Vong: 5 (3-2) 60%
So, the above was fun. But, I thought I should do some specific looking into the specific threats; namely Talon, Thrawn, Morrigan, and for a fun comparison Daala, Bastila, and everybody's favourite - Lobot! Of the 1296 games I've recorded over the last ten years, I've missed 87of the winners Squads and missed 123of the losers Squads (sorry!). Of the 184 Imperial wins I've only missed 3 squads, and of the 113 Imperial losses I've also only missed 3 squads. Fringe, my other major investigation Faction, won 76 times and lost 56 times, but I have all of those squads. It should be noted, however, that I’ve missed the Faction specifics of 23 winners and 34 losers – there could be info buried there!
Talon Kaarde has been used 97 times, winning 60 of them and losing 37 times - 62%
Thrawn has featured 97 times with a 61-36 win-loss ratio - good ol' 63%
Morrigan Corde... 107 outings for 78 wins and just 29 losses - 73%
Compare:
Daala - 56 runs... I shudder to tell you this 46-10 - a staggering 82%
Bastila - 138 appearances - 70-68- 51%
Lobot - 285 features - 180-105 for 63%
Daala is 38-7 in her pre-banned state, and 8-3 in post-banned state. 3-2 after she was first modified and a 5-1 run this year in our school tournaments. Lobot - well, he's always been sturdy - I can live with 63%. I was impressed with Bastila only having 51% - turns out she's not scary here in NZ.
So, the big three. Talon Kaarde - 62% is really good, but not monstrous. Thrawn... an almost 2:1 win ratio shows some serious teeth. Sharp teeth. Morrigan... that Suppressive Fire monster!... she's only lost 29 times in her 107 runs.
Anyhoo - some more thinking to follow. Some more numbers too. Happy to field questions too!
[EDIT! I've found some missing stats so I've amended the numbers.]
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Amazing stats!
How many Daala squads contained Ozzel?
How many Thrawn Morrigan squads contained Ozzel?
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Wow, that's impressive work Kezz!
Those numbers definitely show the unbalancing nature of Daala and why she needed errata.
It also shows the power of Morrigan. However, not as much of an issues w/ Talon as she is with Thrawn.
I'm really looking forward to the outcome of the NZ Championship in September.
IMHO The NZ perspective should greatly influence whatever outcome comes from these discussions.
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jen'ari wrote:Amazing stats!
How many Daala squads contained Ozzel?
How many Thrawn Morrigan squads contained Ozzel? Bloody good questions. I'm on it. I'm also looking at stats of usage by some of our stars. I also wanna see how many times Morrigan has won without Thrawn or Talon.
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