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The game could use a Lobot-omy Options
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Wednesday, January 20, 2021 6:07:40 PM
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Yes, I meant I think the piece that brings in reinforcements should be worth its original points on top of the reinforcement characters counting for points. Part of the opportunity cost for reinforcements, because currently their isn't one. Although I would settle for not having free reinforcements running about.
TheHutts
Posted: Wednesday, January 20, 2021 6:42:16 PM
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When I first started playing, my intuitive approach would have been that Lobot was worth 27 points and that reinforcements were worth points too. I definitely prefer this as a disincentive to Lobot than the admin of 100 points of reserves.

Probably a question for the rules committee if this is possible though.
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Wednesday, January 20, 2021 7:16:49 PM
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I would hope it's relatively simple. It would make reinforcements work the same way as reserves. 😅
EmporerDragon
Posted: Wednesday, January 20, 2021 10:41:40 PM
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I'd be in favor the idea of making reinforcements count, and lowering the mini w/ Reinforcement's scoring value. I also support the limiting the Reinforcements side pool. Setup should be streamlined, and waiting for someone to figure out what 20 points of hate work best just bogs things down.
DarkDracul
Posted: Wednesday, January 20, 2021 11:54:50 PM
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The expectation has always been for players to have a plan for reinforcements going into a tournament.
Players are asked to fill out and submit a squad sheet beforehand and our squad sheets have always asked players to list the reinforcements they intend to use that day. At our shop, a really strict T.O. used to say, "if it isn't on your squad sheet you shouldn't be playing it."

However, we mostly focused on games not being delayed, and no one worried about what was on your squad sheet. Judges remind players to have their reinforcements on hand, ready to go, and not delay the start of the game.
Reinforcements grew into an integral part of competitive play and we are now at a point where players don't even bother listing any reinforcements on their squad sheets at all.

Reinforcements are not usually a problem during the regional season because players are mainly having fun experimenting with squads. Where it does becomes an issue is at highly competitive events like GenCon where players are looking for any advantage over their opponent. This gets sticky as V-sets now outnumber WotC pieces and there are over a hundred options with thousands of combinations for Reinforcements.

I've literally watched Etienne spent several few minutes searching bloomilk on his phone for the perfect counter to his opponent and then putting a bottle cap or a cup of ranch dressing on the map as a proxy.

Players should not be squad building reinforcement options during set up. Requiring players no more than a 100pts of prepared reinforcements is not a big ask. It's less cumbersome than having to watch an opponent search through hundreds of options to counter the squad you built that they were not prepared for . . .
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 4:41:15 AM
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Several minutes of searching should be a slow play warning. Perhaps even being forced to play with no reinforcements.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 6:14:18 AM
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Anyone playing Lobot (or any reinforcement piece) should have done their homework beforehand. Spending several minutes searching through Bloo’s database is insane!

I literally have a typed out list of quick references, and I don’t think I’ve ever spent more than about 20 seconds deciding.
thereisnotry
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 7:36:07 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Several minutes of searching should be a slow play warning. Perhaps even being forced to play with no reinforcements.
This ^^

TimmerB123 wrote:
Anyone playing Lobot (or any reinforcement piece) should have done their homework beforehand. Spending several minutes searching through Bloo’s database is insane!

I literally have a typed out list of quick references, and I don’t think I’ve ever spent more than about 20 seconds deciding.
And this ^^



If you're going to bring a Reinforcements piece then it's YOUR responsibility to choose those Reinforcements quickly. That's the same principle that we have for people who play high-activation squads: it's your responsibility to finish activating your pieces in a responsible amount of time, or else the judge gets called for slow play.

Always, you are responsible for playing the squad that you bring to a tournament, and playing it in a reasonable time frame. If you can't handle the complexity that Reinforcements bring, then don't use Reinforcements if you don't want to be called for slow play.

That's how it's supposed to work.


Honestly, I'm baffled that people have done this with Reinforcements. I've never personally witnessed it, so I never considered that people would actually do it. But yeah...if this is happening then I think the answer is to call a judge for slow play, rather than placing an arbitrary 100pt limit on Reinforcement options or something like that.
adamb0nd
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 7:44:48 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
if this is happening then I think the answer is to call a judge for slow play, rather than placing an arbitrary 100pt limit on Reinforcement options or something like that.


I also haven't experienced this. I tend to pick my possible reinforcements before the tournament anyway out of courtesy to my opponents, and because it's easier for me to pick a good response if I know what I've pre-selected.

Where I can see this really being an issue would be Vassal + New Players. I'm less worried about people purposefully slow playing, because, as you said, just call a judge. But if we have a new player who doesn't know vassal, doesn't really know all the fridge options, then what's the solution? Punish them for their newness and lack of knowledge by calling over a judge and stripping them of reinforcements? Something about that doesn't seem right.

Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 8:10:26 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Anyone playing Lobot (or any reinforcement piece) should have done their homework beforehand. Spending several minutes searching through Bloo’s database is insane!

I literally have a typed out list of quick references, and I don’t think I’ve ever spent more than about 20 seconds deciding.


Agreed Tim! If only we were all required to have done the same homework. Maybe in the form of 100 points of reinforcements allotted? LOL

Minutes of time taken may be a bit of an embellishment. Definitely taken longer than I should have searching for a counter to Stealth and trying to remember the Lin droid. 😅

As bryan said though, which everyone appears to have skipped over, the expectation had been to list any options you plan to use for reinforcements.(Squad sheets still have an area for reinforcements in most case). As the game has become less competitive and more casual that expectation has dissapeared.

Let's bring back the competitive, pre planning aspect to Reinforcements and stop it from making the game a joke and being an NPE on multiple fronts
AndyHatton
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 8:47:05 AM
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Darth_Frenchy wrote:

Let's bring back the competitive, pre planning aspect to Reinforcements and stop it from making the game a joke and being an NPE on multiple fronts


But basically everyone in this thread has said they've never experienced a problem of people taking too long to select reinforcements. So why try and fix an "NPE" that doesn't exist in the manner you suggest it does?
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 10:07:29 AM
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AndyHatton wrote:
Darth_Frenchy wrote:

Let's bring back the competitive, pre planning aspect to Reinforcements and stop it from making the game a joke and being an NPE on multiple fronts


But basically everyone in this thread has said they've never experienced a problem of people taking too long to select reinforcements. So why try and fix an "NPE" that doesn't exist in the manner you suggest it does?


Taking to long is a very small portion of the reinforcements NPE as it exists. That has become the focus of this discussion because the biggest counter argument is one of inconvenience for players that choose to play reinforcement pieces.

Almost no one has argued that unlimited flexibility for no opportunity cost is not an NPE and bad for the community/game. The counter argument is that placing an "un do burden" on reinforcement players would turn squad building into a chore and assumed to be worse for the game. That comparison is ridiculous imo. It is comparing the NPE for players choosing to run reinforcements vs your opponent that has no choice in the matter and just gets countered for 20 points.

Our focus should be to decrease NPEs that have added to the exodus of players or been a barrier for new players. Obviously some people agree, otherwise the most active thread right now wouldn't be about banning a piece that came out in set 6. Well reinforcements have been around far longer and been an NPE since inception. When do they get cut down to size?
thereisnotry
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 10:40:02 AM
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Ok, here's my answer to the question of this thread: As long as my opponent isn't taking a long time to choose his Reinforcements, I see absolutely no problem with Reinforcements, whatsoever.

I think it would make more sense to have reinforcement pieces count for points (as I've argued) but truly, I don't care.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 10:56:38 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
Ok, here's my answer to the question of this thread: As long as my opponent isn't taking a long time to choose his Reinforcements, I see absolutely no problem with Reinforcements, whatsoever.

I think it would make more sense to have reinforcement pieces count for points (as I've argued) but truly, I don't care.


BlooMilk

If Reinforcements count for points, they would work just like Reserves. It's an additional complexity in the sense that it would contradict the glossary and 12+ years of precedent, but like TheHutts said, it's more natural to think that they're worth points anyway (like Reserves). So not that big of a deal. Hardly seems like a change worth making, but whatever.

Making Lobot worth 7pts, though, would be extra confusing. ThumbDown If both Lobot and his reinforcements are worth points, it nerfs Reinforcements some, but is anyone really worried about Reinforcements being too weak?
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 11:09:24 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
If both Lobot and his reinforcements are worth points, it nerfs Reinforcements some, but is anyone really worried about Reinforcements being too weak?


With Lobot No. With other pieces, yes very much. That's using a sledgehammer when a scalpel is needed.

Heck - ban Lobot (and Jabba DT), I don't care. But leave the smartly made reinforcement pieces alone
adamb0nd
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 2:15:57 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
If both Lobot and his reinforcements are worth points, it nerfs Reinforcements some, but is anyone really worried about Reinforcements being too weak?


With Lobot No. With other pieces, yes very much. That's using a sledgehammer when a scalpel is needed.



It seems more intuitive that pieces equal their card cost. Definitely would be a nerf for reinforcements, but it does make sense. You can tailor your squad to counter your opponent, but you risk losing due to having more pieces that can be defeated. I think that's a good trade off.

However, I also don't think reinforcements would be played anymore outside of casual games. There are ways to almost certainly trigger reserves multiple times in a game, and no one plays those squads because the pieces brought in are a liability.

What happens if I play Lobot with no reinforcements? Is he still 7 points? Or is his cost = card - reinforcements brought it?




adamb0nd
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 2:18:44 PM
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Also, are any other reinforcement pieces seeing play being Jabba and Lobot?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 2:44:37 PM
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Valenthyne Farfalla
Quorreal
thereisnotry
Posted: Thursday, January 21, 2021 9:59:51 PM
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Tim makes a good point. In that case I see no reason at all to make a change to Reinforcements.
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Sunday, January 24, 2021 10:35:48 PM
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I bring this stuff up because they are NPE's for me and do take the fun out of the game for me. The competition and skill in the game is why I play, but having every piece ever available is not skillful at all. Maybe this just isn't the game for me anymore.

Reinforcements both not costing points and having unlimited flexibility have been NPE's for a long time. Wonder why nobody has complained about that recently? Maybe they all stopped playing...
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