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Darth Jim's FrostyCon 2015 thoughts Options
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, February 12, 2015 12:27:08 PM
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I haven't seen the Commandos in action much, but it feels like builds that can outactivate the Commandos, then get adjacent and do >20 damage hits or unblockable damage should be able to take them:
- any Daala build with 30 damage shots should eat through the Shield saves.
- Cad Bane/Thrawn swap - Cad should be able to take a Commando down each round, then swap to safety. The Daman Cad Bane/Morrigan build should be able to do well.
- Bastila builds should be fine with +10 damage and turning off Superstealth and cannon shots?
- I don't know how the Vong blast bug matchup would go, but the Vong can tear through the Shields with no problems.

What are the builds? Bacara for superstealth? Extra Bosses for cannon? It's interesting to see a squad without tempo control doing well - I kind of like that to be honest.
Echo24
Posted: Thursday, February 12, 2015 12:34:25 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
It's interesting to see a squad without tempo control doing well - I kind of like that to be honest.


At least 3 of the top 4 didn't have tempo control. What was Gerry playing?
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, February 12, 2015 12:38:09 PM
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It's interesting, because I feel like we've been seeing a very high activation meta in the Hutt Regional, even without Daala - the winning builds have been things like Vong swarms that can steal tempo control if necessary, Separatists with San Hill and lots of Drones (Durge on Speeder + Commando Droid Officers have been popular), and Mandalorians with the CIO and tons of activations.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, February 12, 2015 12:41:56 PM
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I think Commandos are a deceptive build. If you lose to them, it likely looks like you had no chance because while all the synergy is there they are super-strong. But once one or two Deltas fall, the whole squad gets a lot weaker. The squad goes from powerhouse to barely hanging on very quickly.

This is the version I've been running, but depending on the expected meta I may try to fit in one of the Yayax:

--Republic Commando Multi-Cannons--
26 Elite Republic Commando - Boss
26 Republic Commando Niner
25 Elite Republic Commando - Fixer
25 Elite Republic Commando - Scorch
25 Elite Republic Commando - Sev
23 Clone Commander Bacara
38 Republic Commando - Boss x2
16 Republic Commando - Sev
8 Mas Amedda

(198pts. 10 activations)
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, February 12, 2015 12:44:06 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
It's interesting, because I feel like we've been seeing a very high activation meta in the Hutt Regional, even without Daala - the winning builds have been things like Vong swarms that can steal tempo control if necessary, Separatists with San Hill and lots of Drones (Durge on Speeder + Commando Droid Officers have been popular), and Mandalorians with the CIO and tons of activations.


Is NZ still shying away from scissors squads like they did when Daala was at her peak? Confused
If it's not part of the meta, paper will probably continue to run away with it.
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, February 12, 2015 12:52:45 PM
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A Durge on Speeder squad won the last major, and has popped up a few times in the Hutt Regional.

We're not using Set 9 yet, so the minor scissors options aren't available yet.

Mando
Posted: Thursday, February 12, 2015 1:10:49 PM
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I'm hoping this year that we will get a revival of the tank squads that we saw a couple years ago being played. I got 2nd place with my Caedus/Zannah squad at the Wisconsin Regional in 2013 (even beat a Naboo Trooper deathshot squad in the finals that waaaay outactivated me and had gone undefeated till that point) and only slightly lost to a Seperatist Cad Bane squad. My Caedus squad only had 10-12 activations (depended on who i brought in with Lobot). I think Tank squads could do well again, as the last couple sets have eased back on the Tank hate and instead have gone towards taking out the swarms.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, February 12, 2015 1:17:00 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
Regarding the Republic Commandos, obviously since I went 3-1 against them I wouldn't be decrying all of the nuances of their synergy. They are strong, but there are a variety of ways in dealing with them. Force sense, overwhelming force, and suppressive fire to name a few. It is interesting that I dropped Morrigan from last year's squad but she'd be perfect against them if she were in a squad that could boost her damage like she gets in a Talon squad. Thrawn, Gen Skywalker, and Bastilla are possibilities there. She could potentially drop 1 commando a round.


but only if you also had force sense. I think most squads would really struggle without it.

Jim was the only person to beat the commandos all day. And his squad is perfect for it.

My game against Trevor was a joke. I had no chance to even compete.

I feel like the commandos are the new gatekeeper. Like Lancers were a few years back. If you don't have a means and a specific plan to face them, you'll lose.


All that is beside the fact that Jim certainly deserved the Regional title. He was shrewd in squad design and meta forcasting, and played his squad brilliantly.


What were you running, Tim?

Rebel Commandos are certainly strong, but I'm not sure it's any better (worse?) than Zam Caught the Klat. Same issue: bunch of damage coming from guys you can't shoot back at. The RCs are more robust, but at least you can get adjacent and kill them without taking damage in return. I would think your NPE Extreme could do pretty well against RCs.
Weeks
Posted: Thursday, February 12, 2015 3:22:54 PM
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Lord Vader swap could walk the dog in this meta. Too bad Thrawn is in the bin lately. It is nice being able to say a super old squad can now beat some of the new squads.

Why aren't Commandos running Rex instead of Baccara? Wouldn't that solve their one weakness?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, February 12, 2015 3:38:09 PM
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For the version I posted above it's hard to use cannon shots and GMA at the same time. You also lose an activation. Rex may be a better choice though.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Thursday, February 12, 2015 6:32:49 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
Regarding the Republic Commandos, obviously since I went 3-1 against them I wouldn't be decrying all of the nuances of their synergy. They are strong, but there are a variety of ways in dealing with them. Force sense, overwhelming force, and suppressive fire to name a few. It is interesting that I dropped Morrigan from last year's squad but she'd be perfect against them if she were in a squad that could boost her damage like she gets in a Talon squad. Thrawn, Gen Skywalker, and Bastilla are possibilities there. She could potentially drop 1 commando a round.


but only if you also had force sense. I think most squads would really struggle without it.


Sorry...I was assuming that she would base the commando. (Hence using Gen. Skywalker's momentum ce as a damage boost) Yeah, force sense is key if you aren't going to base them.
thereisnotry
Posted: Thursday, February 12, 2015 7:47:13 PM
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Here's the squad I ran, with the main boosts/purposes of each piece listed behind their name

--Republic Commandos--
26 Elite Republic Commando - Boss (Coordinated Movement, Rapport, Extra Att CE)
24 Republic Commando Niner (+10dmg CE)
23 Elite Republic Commando - Fixer (Override, Synergy +4)
23 Elite Republic Commando - Scorch (Shatterbeam, Shields 2)
23 Elite Republic Commando - Sev (Twin Attack, Stable Footing)
23 Clone Commander Bacara (Superstealth CE)
19 Republic Commando Dev (Missiles 30)
19 Republic Commando Jind (Sentry...rarely used)
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
5 Rodian Diplomat
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

(200pts. 12 activations)

Each piece contributed something valuable to the squad. Luke Cook's version didn't have Niner but it did have an extra Boss (the CotF version) and RC Atin (Final Shot) and Fi (Traps, Adv Door Gimmick), without Dev (Missiles). If he and I had played each other, I'm pretty sure I would've won, since I had 2 ways of removing his Stealth (Sentry and ItsATrap), while he had no way to remove my stealth. However, he was able to beat Jim once during Swiss; I seem to recall Jim commenting that the extra Boss made a big difference.

Really, I think there are several ways to build a solid RC squad. Squads with Fi (Traps) will have a much easier time vs tanks, while squads with Jind (Sentry) will be able to handle Klats and other SS much better. Squads with Rex will not suffer as much vs Force Sense, but squads with Bacara will destroy almost any shooter squad that can't remove stealth. Atin is a good choice, which I hadn't really considered too much; he basically gives you 2 solid finishers, rather than just one (Sev). Luke Cook even mentioned taking Yularen for Opportunist, though I'm not sure that would be worth it, since you have low activations.

TJ's comment about the squad losing effectiveness when it starts losing RCs is exactly right. Losing any of the ERCs is a huge setback to the synergy of the squad. Even losing one of the Yayax or Omega guys is bad, because that's less uses of Coordinated Movement, in addition to the contributions of that individual piece. I will say that the squad is a bit tricky to play, too. I was often having to double- and triple-plan my moves, just to be sure that I could coordinate my Coordinated Movement and other tricks effectively, without leaving myself hung out to dry. It's definitely not a squad for people who have a hard time finishing their games, because the Analysis-Paralysis will grind you to a halt, and you won't get any 3pt wins.

The question of Bacara's usefulness is a good one. The kind of competitive shooters we have is starting to shift. It used to be that all of the solid shooters were non-Accurate, but had the mobile-quad silliness (Cad/Rex/Dash), or else really high damage ceilings through other means (Jaq with ABM for 40s)...these guys were the go-to shooters for almost any squad. For that reason, Stealth has often been viewed from a designer standpoint as a reliable defensive ability that adds a lot to a piece's survivability, since the quad-cannons had a harder time with them. But now we've got Boba and Sev and NR Han, all of whom are very dangerous shooters with good damage output and Accurate Shot. They have a lower damage ceiling than the quad-cannons, but they can shoot guys with Stealth. So, since Accurate shooters are starting to be used again, the value of stealth has gone down, while the value of SuperStealth and Cloaked have increased. Right now, I think that Bacara is worth it, if only to give a fighting chance against those effective pieces with Accurate Shot...but he's pretty much 23 wasted points against Force Sense (ie, Jim's squad). And he's a decent 30dmg shooter (Cunning) too, most of the time. It's definitely worth trying a RC squad with Rex, though.


Here are my thoughts on the matchups that have been mentioned:

NPE Extreme (that's the single Lancer squad, right?): I don't think it's a big deal, because the Lancer can strafe everyone twice (in and then out again), but the RCs will be taking an average of 10dmg per hit and can easily use Kolto Pack to heal that damage while they advance...once they get far enough, it'll be fun. :) They also have sturdy door control (Shatterbeam and tough Override), so there would be no door shenanigans.

(speaking of which...) Double Lancer: Could be a problem, if enough damage can get through to drop a RC or two before both Lancers are gone. Shield saves will be key.

Shooters without a way to remove Stealth are hosed...just like Tim said.

Momentum: Any melee or in-your-face squad with a reliable way to close the gap stands a good chance. The question will be whether it can work through the Shields fast enough and survive long enough to kill enough of the RCs to turn the tide. Mace/GOWK could be a problem, if the RCs don't have Fi for Traps. The question, though, is whether Mace/GOWK can handle the rest of the meta. As an example, Talon Karrde is a severe--perhaps insurmountable--problem for jedi tank squads.

Morrigan: If she has a way to get in and get adjacent, she'll kill a RC every round (assuming a dmg boost). She likely won't be able to do it more than once, though, unless she outactivates and has a way to guarantee initiative. If she does, then that might be enough to swing the tide.

ABM: ABM will remove some of the squad's power (SS and damage boosts and cannon shots), but the OR still lack the solid accurate shooters that they'll need to attack the RCs. So at this point, I think that ABM by itself is not enough to carry the day for the OR against the RCs.

Daala: RCs are hard-to-kill pieces that shoot back; I think that matchup is at least 60/40 in favor of the RCs, unless there's some factor that I'm missing here. If Daala sends in 1 or 2 guys at at time (after outactivating), then Kolto Pack can heal, while the squad advances. If she sends them in large waves, then Daala had better hope that the shield saves are miserable, because each RC will take down 2 or more Imperial troopers each activation. And all of this is assuming that the Imperial troopers have a way to target the RCs (depending on the presence or absence of Bacara).


Anyway, I think it's clear that the RCs are contender in the meta; I just don't think they're as strong as they might appear. I'm still not sure how they could beat Jim's squad with any degree of reliability. Force Sense, coupled with the high damage output of solid shooters, means that RCs will be on their heels for most of that match.
DARPH NADER
Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 3:35:09 AM
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Echo24 wrote:
TheHutts wrote:
It's interesting to see a squad without tempo control doing well - I kind of like that to be honest.


At least 3 of the top 4 didn't have tempo control. What was Gerry playing?


I ran my "I Klatius" build with San Hill which turned out to be my undoing vs both matches against Luke. I didn't really pack any versatile reinforcement options as I wasn't planning on playing based on an odd number. Without access to a treadwell or an MTB to scrag San, I had little/NO chance against the REC's.

When we got back to my house for the top 4, I didn't feel right about going up to my library and suddenly having an MTB in my box, so I took my lumps as a good host should.
TimmerB123
Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 10:11:20 AM
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DARPH NADER wrote:

I ran my "I Klatius" build with San Hill which turned out to be my undoing vs both matches against Luke. I didn't really pack any versatile reinforcement options as I wasn't planning on playing based on an odd number. Without access to a treadwell or an MTB to scrag San, I had little/NO chance against the REC's.


Man, I had a big fat box with anything you needed 2 tables over the whole day. All you had to do was ask.

If it's any consolation - I don't think your squad fairs well vs RCs regardless. Maybe the quick death was less painful in the end.
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