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The conversation happens all the time. And slowly, more and more people jump to our side on it. There are things you have to have to be successful in this game. Until we ban all act control, set a limit to activations in a round ( I think that is something that should 100% be looked into) or just give all factions access to the top tier things, or cheap, cheap, faction specific counters, we will be in a stand still.
OR will need 1 of 2 things, act control high 20/lower 30 piece thats a fighter. Or maybe it only triggers when he has line of sight to an enemy? or... They need a piece costed about Low 20's that hands out +4 defense to all activated allies, and then give that character Disciplined Leader.
I still think Sub-Factions are the way to go in all factions. Covenant OR should be that, Covenant OR. Thre should be a way to play Revan/Mission/Zaalbar/HK/ and all the other KOTOR characters together. Theme squads from the MMO would be cool to see, and I think we are with the Unique Soldiers? Who, right now actually don't really benefit from anything great. I think Unique OR Soliders need a leader they can really on, maybe something else besides the Arkanian Jedi?
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shmi15 wrote: The conversation happens all the time. And slowly, more and more people jump to our side on it. There are things you have to have to be successful in this game. Until we ban all act control, set a limit to activations in a round ( I think that is something that should 100% be looked into) or just give all factions access to the top tier things, or cheap, cheap, faction specific counters, we will be in a stand still. That's SWMinis Socialism right there  In all seriousness, I disagree. The game is already limited by factions (which makes sense) and point cost (which makes sense). Limiting by number of characters is about as un-Star Wars as Stormtroopers being able to roll critical hits. I think there has yet to be a battle in Star Wars that is numerically equitable. Yes, the OR needs to be able to deal with the movement/act control that other factions can throw out there. I don't think giving them carbon copies of what's worked so far in other factions is the only way forward? (although to be clear, it certainly is a possible way forward. Jen'ari pointed out that the OR has it's own unique flavor, and I'd prefer to preserve that and go with more outside-the-box solutions). I've been reminiscing recently about how high Defense used to be a huge advantage. Jedi were good for no other reason than they had high Defense and a ton of HP to chew through. If we're concerned about the OR not being able to combat swarms, I say let's get back to the good ol' days with what originally made Jedi good: high base stats. Let's give the OR some sort of defensive ability that lets them outlast swarm squads. I think that fits the faction flavor-wise (Longest-running organized faction in Star Wars, I would say), and game-wise (a lot of their good pieces - which we're discussing here - are just solid beats looking for the right opportunity to go to town). Quote:OR will need 1 of 2 things, act control high 20/lower 30 piece thats a fighter. Or maybe it only triggers when he has line of sight to an enemy? or... They need a piece costed about Low 20's that hands out +4 defense to all activated allies, and then give that character Disciplined Leader. That could work nicely. I think it'd be cool if they just gained Defensive Stance instead of waiting until everybody's moved.
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I am a firm believer that OR does not need tech from tech pieces and can do it by just having top tier pieces or from other attackers.
Shmi's thoughts about factions are great. One of the issues is where do you go with Army of Light? They already get bubble and prideful bonuses.... So if you give more defense it is hard to think about. If you give more damage it is hard to think about. They will need solid good pieces.
But if we make a very very solid 35-45 point piece that is Power 9.5 that has easy to use defense and solid damage (80 damage).
If this piece helps one of these power 8.5 pieces be power 9-9.5 we are in business.
Deaths_Baine idea is perfect although it might need to be a bit more powerful. but the idea of a great piece helping push an 8.5 to a 9 is the way to think of things.
"At the start of the skirmish Select One Unique New Republic follower with a Force Rating and a lower printed cost. That character gains 1 Force Point and Lightsaber Precision."
Now Corellian Comedian is also right that OR have so many things to pull from. I mean think about all the different masters Nomi Sunrider had. I think it was 3 full fledged Masters, she learned so many different things that have not been explored completely. Heck she had an ability where she controlled people and made them fight each other. She did it 2-3 times in her life that I know of.... holy piss!! that is awesome stuff.
anyway. using Deaths_Baine idea of selecting one unique force rating follower and giving it something to really help can turn the tides if the piece itself is already really powerful.
In Legends I designed a Nomi that allowed a unique force user within 6 squares to use a force power that replaces attacks at the end of her turn. So Ulic could Assault, Satele could push, Vodo could force weapon, Thon could Repulse.
This mechanic alone would change things. To be honest I would love for the within 6 squares to stay in effect. If base stats are good enough and the designs mesh well enough than it should be feasible.
Jedi Task Force is what the OR should be all about.
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jen'ari wrote:I am a firm believer that OR does not need tech from tech pieces and can do it by just having top tier pieces or from other attackers.
But if we make a very very solid 35-45 point piece that is Power 9.5 that has easy to use defense and solid damage (80 damage).
If this piece helps one of these power 8.5 pieces be power 9-9.5 we are in business.
I'm thinking just the opposite. I love that there's this balance of all these pieces. I couldn't even rank them all - they fill different roles and are different costs, but there's not a clear pecking order for the pieces listed earlier. Vodo, Vima, Satele are probably near the top. Kira might be near the bottom. But they're all really close. If another piece in that range comes in at Power 9.5 or 10, and especially if that piece boosts one specific ally, you have a playable pair. And all the rest will fall to the side. If there's tech, though, that somehow ties things together and boosts this category of character to a power level, you can choose which ones you want and squadbuilders can figure out the best combination. Another option would be a Bastila replacement. Something that doesn't play well with Bastila but is on that power level and boosts this group of characters. Two other serious Bastila options have been tried. AJG works with Prideful for OR Soldiers, but they're probably still Tier 2 or 1.5 at best. And Odan-Urr works best with one big beatstick getting another turn. I haven't actually tried him in epics, but I imagine he's a beast there. In 200, probably Tier 2 at best. Could go up considerably if someone came along that could really make amazing use of the second turn in a round. If a piece is in this cost range and is power 9.5/10 but not playing well with Bastila, then that piece replaces Bastila instead of knocking out this group.
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Compared to the top squads the OR does not have tech that can compare. They need better tech... In my opinion
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FlyingArrow wrote:jen'ari wrote:I am a firm believer that OR does not need tech from tech pieces and can do it by just having top tier pieces or from other attackers.
But if we make a very very solid 35-45 point piece that is Power 9.5 that has easy to use defense and solid damage (80 damage).
If this piece helps one of these power 8.5 pieces be power 9-9.5 we are in business.
I'm thinking just the opposite. I love that there's this balance of all these pieces. I couldn't even rank them all - they fill different roles and are different costs, but there's not a clear pecking order for the pieces listed earlier. Vodo, Vima, Satele are probably near the top. Kira might be near the bottom. But they're all really close. If another piece in that range comes in at Power 9.5 or 10, and especially if that piece boosts one specific ally, you have a playable pair. And all the rest will fall to the side. If there's tech, though, that somehow ties things together and boosts this category of character to a power level, you can choose which ones you want and squadbuilders can figure out the best combination. Another option would be a Bastila replacement. Something that doesn't play well with Bastila but is on that power level and boosts this group of characters. Two other serious Bastila options have been tried. AJG works with Prideful for OR Soldiers, but they're probably still Tier 2 or 1.5 at best. And Odan-Urr works best with one big beatstick getting another turn. I haven't actually tried him in epics, but I imagine he's a beast there. In 200, probably Tier 2 at best. Could go up considerably if someone came along that could really make amazing use of the second turn in a round. If a piece is in this cost range and is power 9.5/10 but not playing well with Bastila, then that piece replaces Bastila instead of knocking out this group. Well giving a senator another turn with a big attacker (especially with Bastilla active) like Vodo, or Vima, or even WOTC Mira, might be able to do the trick. And I certainly think there is a squad using some of the stuff from set 14 (Q and/or Ven), just that so far with no tournaments or other reports, we haven't seen exactly how this fleshes out.
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Nomi Sunrider, Master of the Order
Cost 42
HP 120
Def 21
atk 13
dmg 20
Unique
Melee Attack
Triple Attack
Presence of the Light Side: Allies within 6 squares that activate or end their activation within 6 squares of this character remove 10 damage and gain +1 force, save 11.
Evade
Force 2, Renewal 2, Mof 2
Lightsaber Defense
Force Absorb
Farsight: (Force 1: range 6; any 1 ally rerolls its last attack)
Commander Effect
At the end of this character's turn an ally within 6 squares may use a force power that replaces attacks.
Or this
Hoth
Cost 48
HP 120
Def 21
Atk 14
dmg 20
Unique
Army of Light
Triple Attack
Protective (+10 damage while a wounded force user ally is within 6 squares)
Rallying Call: At the end of this characters turn, allies within 3 squares may move adjacent to this character.
Force Powers
Force 3 ren 1 mof 2
Leaping Assault
Knight Speed
L. Defense
CE
After initiative is determined, this character and adjacent allies may move up to 3 squares.
________________________________________________________________________________
These are part tech to help out as well. I do not see these pieces as replacing any particular style or making a certain combo better than a different certain combo.
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FlyingArrow wrote:jen'ari wrote:I am a firm believer that OR does not need tech from tech pieces and can do it by just having top tier pieces or from other attackers.
But if we make a very very solid 35-45 point piece that is Power 9.5 that has easy to use defense and solid damage (80 damage).
If this piece helps one of these power 8.5 pieces be power 9-9.5 we are in business.
I'm thinking just the opposite. I love that there's this balance of all these pieces. I couldn't even rank them all - they fill different roles and are different costs, but there's not a clear pecking order for the pieces listed earlier. Vodo, Vima, Satele are probably near the top. Kira might be near the bottom. But they're all really close. If another piece in that range comes in at Power 9.5 or 10, and especially if that piece boosts one specific ally, you have a playable pair. And all the rest will fall to the side. If there's tech, though, that somehow ties things together and boosts this category of character to a power level, you can choose which ones you want and squadbuilders can figure out the best combination. Another option would be a Bastila replacement. Something that doesn't play well with Bastila but is on that power level and boosts this group of characters. Two other serious Bastila options have been tried. AJG works with Prideful for OR Soldiers, but they're probably still Tier 2 or 1.5 at best. And Odan-Urr works best with one big beatstick getting another turn. I haven't actually tried him in epics, but I imagine he's a beast there. In 200, probably Tier 2 at best. Could go up considerably if someone came along that could really make amazing use of the second turn in a round. If a piece is in this cost range and is power 9.5/10 but not playing well with Bastila, then that piece replaces Bastila instead of knocking out this group. What Deaths_Baine was suggesting was a boost, from a jedi, that gave a certain something to a chosen piece. His example was L precision. I said it might have to be more than that. What if it was Parry? who is the one piece that would be the best combo if given Parry? I think Ulic becomes pretty stout, Kira becomes that much better, would it help Vima the most?
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jen'ari wrote:What Deaths_Baine was suggesting was a boost, from a jedi, that gave a certain something to a chosen piece. His example was L precision. I said it might have to be more than that. What if it was Parry? who is the one piece that would be the best combo if given Parry? I think Ulic becomes pretty stout, Kira becomes that much better, would it help Vima the most? Ah - I thought it was a Camaraderie-type suggestion. Person A boosts Person B specifically. My fault.
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