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Poll Question : Would you mind if a power piece changed the meta?
Choice Votes Statistics
No, swap and out activate has reigned long enough 3 37.500000 %
No, we need Jedi to be more competitive 1 12.500000 %
No, but I don't see how that can happen 0 0.000000 %
Yes, I like the way things are 0 0.000000 %
Yes, Power 11 pieces have historically hurt 3 37.500000 %
Yes, change will hurt participation 0 0.000000 %
Yes, but I want to see other competitive options 1 12.500000 %

POLL: Would you mind seeing a Power 11 piece if it meant changing the top? (read first) Options
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, September 1, 2018 3:26:21 PM
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To explain power piece:
it kind of has to be a hard counter, there are lots of soft counters to out activation. Double Agent helps against 13-15 activation squads but not the 21-24 activation squads. Amanoa could work if Sith was better, so making a power 11 Sith Master could do the job as well, imo. It has to be something that actually will shift the meta. Right now Out activation is ruling supreme.

Please explain why you choose the option you choose and if there is another option that you would choose if you could choose more than 1 option.

Choice 1: Do you want a full counter to out activate or swap?
Choice 2: Do you want counters that naturally bring jedi to the front or just power 10 and 11 jedi in general?
Choice 3: Do you have any ideas?

Choice 4: Do you want more balance in factions?
Choice 5: Double agent has tried to hurt out activate, do you think it can affect the meta if it was a lobot reinforcement?
Choice 6: Change could hurt those that do not come around often and want a "tried and true" squad (Dr. Daman rocked Poggled Bombs and Thrawn Swap this year)
Choice 7: What are the other options? jedi? non-uniques? etc. what do you think can actually compete?
Naarkon
Posted: Sunday, September 2, 2018 10:52:28 AM
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I voted for no power 11 pieces.

A couple thoughts:
If a power 11 piece is made, eventually it will need a counter or another power 11 piece to even it out. By definition a power 11 piece warps and controls the faction it is in because it is just so powerful (see Bastilla).
IMO hard counters are a lazy design choice. It would be better (even though it would take longer) to develop pieces which allow full squads to not have as bad a matchup against certain squad types when they face them, but hard counters just change which player loses before the game starts.
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, September 2, 2018 12:59:41 PM
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I don't really see bastila as that bad tbh.

At least she helped OR get on the map.

I think power 9 and power 10 pieces are the way to go as well but designers are so afraid per 10 pieces that they end up being low power 9 pieces and not doing anything.
The other side of that is when a potential per 9 or 10 piece comes out there is no support from following sets.

I sincerely hope set 17 is helping army of light and Revan squads specifically. I was hoping that a set would help covenant as well.
Booster seems fun, needs support. Those kinds of things take forever (years) for people to support potential meta building pieces.

With no guarantee from consecutive set designers, if i was a designer, I would try to get everything done in that set rather then see good effort ideas (power 9 that need support) sit on the bench for years
thereisnotry
Posted: Monday, September 3, 2018 2:47:12 AM
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I've never made a secret that I hate the out-activate-and-smash squads. It seems to me like all they tend to win via non-engagement. Didn't Tim have to play against a Yobuck squad or two during the tournament?

However, I just want to point out that a melee squad (Vader and Palpy!!) would've likely won the Championship this year if not for Morrigan Corde and her $t&@!# ability to ignore all defenses. So I don't think the problem is only with out-activate-and-smash, but also with characters that completely ignore all defenses (abilities like Rigged Detonators, Suppressive Fire, perhaps others too). Characters like this make it a losing proposition to play jedi squads, which is why I haven't done that for several years.
gholli69
Posted: Monday, September 3, 2018 3:03:10 AM
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Yes, Tim did play at least 1 yobuck squad as I am pretty sure that Etienne beat him in the early Swiss rounds. Rigged detonators to me are not as bad as suppressive fire. Your opponent can avoid the auto fail on rigged detonators by not standing in cover or against low objects. Brutal strike is another one but it helps beatsticks so generally isn't seen as a problem at least not yet.
Naarkon
Posted: Monday, September 3, 2018 4:48:46 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
I don't really see bastila as that bad tbh.

At least she helped OR get on the map.


It’s not so much her power level, but that for many sets afterwards everything in OR had to be looked at in terms of “will this be broken with Bastilla” since she affects basically every single character ever made, friendly and oppossing (except Vong and the like).
SithBot
Posted: Monday, September 3, 2018 6:03:00 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:


However, I just want to point out that a melee squad (Vader and Palpy!!) would've likely won the Championship this year if not for Morrigan Corde and her $t&@!# ability to ignore all defenses. So I don't think the problem is only with out-activate-and-smash, but also with characters that completely ignore all defenses (abilities like Rigged Detonators, Suppressive Fire, perhaps others too).


I can agree with this to a point. There is a lot of direct damage. I did not see ATM's squad, but he should out activate. Kybuck and Tarpals have access to Evazan auto 60, flamethrower auto 40, etc. Once you kill Palps it is game over for that squad. (half the squad). Someone has to kill Evazan, wasting their turn as well or else he will do the 60 again (heaven forbid he makes the avoid defeat saves).

but it is great to see Palpatine at the top.
#moreBHC please

As for the poll I choose jedi need to be more competitive. If that means that they find a way to stop suppressive fire and rigged detonators (they are jedi after all they do sense things) than I am fine with that. I just cant think of a time where there is such a good shooter that they just didnt have a chance at stopping the blaster fire. heck, we have jedi stopping flamethrowers for crying out loud.

jen'ari
Posted: Monday, September 3, 2018 7:58:52 AM
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Naarkon wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
I don't really see bastila as that bad tbh.

At least she helped OR get on the map.


It’s not so much her power level, but that for many sets afterwards everything in OR had to be looked at in terms of “will this be broken with Bastilla” since she affects basically every single character ever made, friendly and oppossing (except Vong and the like).


True, but I think people are taking it to the extreme imo. The shooters have to be careful, but melee shouldn't care that much. I think we have seen that considering the best OR squads right now are Triple Ven (relies on range) and Hex Droids (also range).

When was the last time a melee OR squad looked dangerous?
Naarkon
Posted: Monday, September 3, 2018 8:55:34 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
Naarkon wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
I don't really see bastila as that bad tbh.

At least she helped OR get on the map.


It’s not so much her power level, but that for many sets afterwards everything in OR had to be looked at in terms of “will this be broken with Bastilla” since she affects basically every single character ever made, friendly and oppossing (except Vong and the like).


True, but I think people are taking it to the extreme imo. The shooters have to be careful, but melee shouldn't care that much. I think we have seen that considering the best OR squads right now are Triple Ven (relies on range) and Hex Droids (also range).

When was the last time a melee OR squad looked dangerous?


Oh melee absolutely needs help against shooters, and stupid shooters that ignore all defenses need to stop being made. My personal opinion is that several power 8 or 9 pieces would do the same job as a power 11 piece to help melee while also leaving room for different squads and variations.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, September 3, 2018 9:16:48 AM
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Naarkon wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
Naarkon wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
I don't really see bastila as that bad tbh.

At least she helped OR get on the map.


It’s not so much her power level, but that for many sets afterwards everything in OR had to be looked at in terms of “will this be broken with Bastilla” since she affects basically every single character ever made, friendly and oppossing (except Vong and the like).


True, but I think people are taking it to the extreme imo. The shooters have to be careful, but melee shouldn't care that much. I think we have seen that considering the best OR squads right now are Triple Ven (relies on range) and Hex Droids (also range).

When was the last time a melee OR squad looked dangerous?


Oh melee absolutely needs help against shooters, and stupid shooters that ignore all defenses need to stop being made. My personal opinion is that several power 8 or 9 pieces would do the same job as a power 11 piece to help melee while also leaving room for different squads and variations.


Question then:

Old Republic received 2 power 8 or greater piece in set 14 and 15

Vodo and Ven. Do you think it influenced the meta? do you think it changed the top tier?

Do you think that the new power 8 - 9 pieces in Malak, Revan, and Kao Cen with influence the competitive meta?

I think the answer is no.
I think Malak and Revan need at the very least a Power 9 or 10 piece that fits there play style very well.

I guess my question is how can power 8 and Power 9 pieces compete with Power 10 pieces that create Power 11 squads?

Thrawn is Power 10 no questions, Morrigan is Power 10 no questions. Gilad is Power 10 no question

Together you get a power 11 squad.

Daala is still Power 11 by herself.




Naarkon
Posted: Monday, September 3, 2018 11:17:48 AM
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Location: Wisconsin
jen'ari wrote:
Naarkon wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
Naarkon wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
I don't really see bastila as that bad tbh.

At least she helped OR get on the map.


It’s not so much her power level, but that for many sets afterwards everything in OR had to be looked at in terms of “will this be broken with Bastilla” since she affects basically every single character ever made, friendly and oppossing (except Vong and the like).


True, but I think people are taking it to the extreme imo. The shooters have to be careful, but melee shouldn't care that much. I think we have seen that considering the best OR squads right now are Triple Ven (relies on range) and Hex Droids (also range).

When was the last time a melee OR squad looked dangerous?


Oh melee absolutely needs help against shooters, and stupid shooters that ignore all defenses need to stop being made. My personal opinion is that several power 8 or 9 pieces would do the same job as a power 11 piece to help melee while also leaving room for different squads and variations.


Question then:

Old Republic received 2 power 8 or greater piece in set 14 and 15

Vodo and Ven. Do you think it influenced the meta? do you think it changed the top tier?

Do you think that the new power 8 - 9 pieces in Malak, Revan, and Kao Cen with influence the competitive meta?

I think the answer is no.
I think Malak and Revan need at the very least a Power 9 or 10 piece that fits there play style very well.

I guess my question is how can power 8 and Power 9 pieces compete with Power 10 pieces that create Power 11 squads?

Thrawn is Power 10 no questions, Morrigan is Power 10 no questions. Gilad is Power 10 no question

Together you get a power 11 squad.

Daala is still Power 11 by herself.




Good point. I guess going off of that banning the problem pieces is the way to go. If people don’t want to errata WotC pieces (totally understandable IMO) but they are still a problem, then ban them.

All that creating more power 11 pieces does is just outclass more and more pieces. Right now a piece that would instantly let melee compete against Thrawn or Daala would also completely neuter other, nonbroken squads. Daala isn’t the only swarm, Thrawn isn’t the only one with swap and opportunist.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, September 3, 2018 11:50:50 AM
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I can fully agree that Power 11 pieces are not the way to go. I just think that Power 8 and 9 cannot do anything. We need people to be ok with Power 10 or making power 9 pieces into Power 10 pieces by giving them support (aka OR Revan).

Like I said before if we get Sith on the map I truly believe Amanoa could be a good counter to out activate and swap/smash, but not to out activate and swarm.

i do like the ideas coming out of things like Plageuis, Jango, Son of Skywalker, Forn Dodonna. Where once your activations end you get a bonus.
I just think they have to have a better affect or be on better pieces overall to have an actual impact.

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