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Commander effect question Options
Jdimmick
Posted: Saturday, October 27, 2018 4:16:10 PM
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So I had always been under the impression that when a commander effect says it effects allies, it only applied to the other characters in the squad and not the commander himself. But according to my interpretation of the FAQ, Bali Organa can receive his own commander effect, when his says it effects allies. Does this mean that commander effects that effect allies also effect the commander in question?
shmi15
Posted: Saturday, October 27, 2018 4:55:40 PM
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Jdimmick wrote:
So I had always been under the impression that when a commander effect says it effects allies, it only applied to the other characters in the squad and not the commander himself. But according to my interpretation of the FAQ, Bali Organa can receive his own commander effect, when his says it effects allies. Does this mean that commander effects that effect allies also effect the commander in question?


Can you quote the CE and the FAQ link your speaking of?
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Saturday, October 27, 2018 5:13:04 PM
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Quote:
Commander Effect:
Whenever one or more allies whose names contain Alderaan Trooper combine fire with another ally whose name contains Alderaan Trooper, the attacker gets +10 Damage.


Quote:
FAQ
Q: Can a character with a commander effect use it on itself?
A: In most cases, no, because most commander effects apply only to followers (in other words,
characters without commander effects). A commander effect that works on characters other than followers could be used by the commander on itself as long as the character is otherwise eligible. For example, Bail Organa's commander effect applies to Alderaan Troopers, and since Bail Organa counts as an Alderaan Trooper (thanks to his Alderaan Senator ability), he can benefit from his own commander effect & he gets the bonus to Damage when other Alderaan Troopers combine fire with him.

Jdimmick
Posted: Saturday, October 27, 2018 5:30:20 PM
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^thanks for the quotes
shmi15
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 6:41:25 AM
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Well, that could change a few things... I feel like there is a rule somewhere tho that has that covered. Could be wrong.

But maybe the rules guy will come in and sort this out
EmporerDragon
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 10:10:13 AM
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The reason Bail's CE will work on himself is because of how the CE is worded.

While Bail cannot be his own ally (The glossary definition defines an ally as another character in your or a teammate's squad), he is the Trooper's ally and the trooper is his ally. So, when either of them combine fire with the other, all conditions of the CE are met (An Alderaan Trooper combining fire with an allied Alderaan Trooper), and so, the attacker gets a +10 damage bonus.

Keep in mind that Bail's CE's wording is a rather uncommon one and shouldn't be used to measure other CEs. If a Commander has a Commander Effect that they are affected by themselves, the CE will instead use the phrase "In your squad" which will be accompanied by an "(Including this character)".
Jdimmick
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 10:27:48 AM
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That all would make sense, in terms of distinction between allies and characters, and when the CE says including this character, which is what I used to think too, except for the fact that I really do believe that allies would have to apply to the commander in order for bail to either benefit from an ally combining with him or for an ally to benefit from him combining fire with that ally, because either way, it says only an ally can contribute to the process or gain the bonus damage. The CE basically says that an ALLY who is an Alderaan trooper combines fire with another ALLY who is also an Alderaan trooper, the first ALLY receives bonus damage. To say that Bail could be either one of those ALLIES means that the term ALLY can apply to the commander giving the effect. Note also that the FAQ only states that it is impossible for a commander to receive the effect if the CE applies only to FOLLOWERS. It’s odd that it would leave out allies in that section if having an ally based commander effect could not apply to the commander himself.
Jdimmick
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 10:38:01 AM
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Ah ok, I think I get what you mean. Basically, what you’re saying is, the word “ally” in this CE means ally to the alderaan trooper, not ally to Bail. I always thought ally was always in reference to an ally of the commander in a CE. If that were the case, commanders could gain their own CEs if it applies to ally’s. What you’re saying is allies in this commander effect just means an troopers that are allies to each other. However, I’m still not entirely convinced that the wording is enough to justify that, considering it just says ally’s. Idk man, it’s confusing.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 11:19:45 AM
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Jdimmick wrote:
The CE basically says that an ALLY who is an Alderaan trooper combines fire with another ALLY who is also an Alderaan trooper, the first ALLY receives bonus damage.


I'm seeing where the trip up here is. The effect does not say that the ally receives bonus damage, it states that the attacker does. That's the loophole that lets Bail get the bonus damage.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 11:39:13 AM
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EmporerDragon wrote:
I'm seeing where the trip up here is. The effect does not say that the ally receives bonus damage, it states that the attacker does. That's the loophole that lets Bail get the bonus damage.

But the attacker can only be an ally- that's how the CE works. The first trooper can only combine fire with another ally whose name contains Alderaan Trooper. This would only allow Bail get the damage boost if the attacker had to be an ally of the trooper combining fire, not an ally of Bail. And even that wouldn't allow Bail to combine fire with a trooper and grant them bonus damage- the character combining fire has to be his ally. This would make sense when you look at the FAQ which says that Bail can get the bonus damage, but doesn't say that he can combine fire to grant it.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 12:05:30 PM
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The CE does not designate if the allied trooper is the one attacking or the one combining fire; all that matters is that they are being involved in the combined fire process.

So:

If an allied trooper has Bail combine with him:
Is an allied trooper combining fire? Yes.
Is this ally combining fire with an allied trooper? Yes.
Then the attacker gets +10 damage.

Whereas if the situation is reversed, we still have the same questions and outcomes:
Is an allied trooper combining fire? Yes.
Is this ally combining fire with an allied trooper? Yes.
Then the attacker gets +10 damage.
Jdimmick
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 1:10:26 PM
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The way I’m thinking about it:

If an allied trooper has Bail combine with him:
Is an ally of Bail combining fire? Yes
Is this ally combining fire with another ally of Bail? No it’s combining with Bail himself.
If commanders don’t count as their own allies, Bail shouldn’t get +10 in this scenario.

If what you are saying is one of the “allies” in the commander effect just has to be an ally of the first ally, and not an ally of Bail, then what you are saying makes sense. If both allies have to be allies of Bail and not of the other trooper, then the only way Bail can get the plus 10 is if commanders count as allies.. Like I said I’m not sure the wording justifies the first interpretation.

Scenario 2: Bail combines fire with a trooper
Is an ally of Bailr combining fire? No, Bail himself is.
Is this ally combining fire with an allied trooper? Yes.
Still shouldn’t get +10 damage.

Unless allies in this sentence somewhere means ally of the trooper instead of ally of Bail both times, neither scenario should work. Unless of course, commanders can get their own commander effects when it says allies.
urbanjedi
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 1:13:37 PM
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
[quote]Commander Effect:
Whenever one or more allies whose names contain Alderaan Trooper combine fire with another ally whose name contains Alderaan Trooper, the attacker gets +10 Damage.


I would actually say that if Bail is doing the combining, then it doesn;t work, unless another alderaan tropper was also combining fire.

It says whenever one or more allies whose name contains Alderaan Trooper, and Bail is not his own Ally, so he can never be an ally that is combining fire.

However as the FAQ notes, if another Alderaan trooper (an ally of Bail) is combining fire and Bail (an ally of the trooper doing the combining) is doing the shooting, then Bail would get the +10 damage.

EmporerDragon
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 3:06:04 PM
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Quote:
If what you are saying is one of the “allies” in the commander effect just has to be an ally of the first ally, and not an ally of Bail, then what you are saying makes sense.


Yes. This is exactly what I am saying. The Commander Effect is talking about an ally of an ally, not two allies of Bail.

Think about General Obi-Wan Kenobi's Commander Effect for a second. A character can gain the bonus while only Kenobi is within 6 squares of them because Kenobi is an ally within 6 squares; it's not referring to a 2nd allied character besides Kenobi and the follower.

Jdimmick
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 5:04:18 PM
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Makes sense. Could be worded a bit better probably.
juice man
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 5:14:21 PM
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Jdimmick wrote:
Makes sense. Could be worded a bit better probably.
SWM in a nutshell!
EmporerDragon
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 5:18:06 PM
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Jdimmick wrote:
Could be worded a bit better probably.


A lot of things could be worded better in this game. Keep in mind that Bail's from RotS, the 3rd set made, making him a very early piece from when the game was still figuring itself out. He's also one of the worst characters of all-time in the game, so his presence on the game table has been basically non-existent since his debut (as even Klatoonian Enforcers and Nikto Scouts had use in sealed play).
Jdimmick
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 7:17:39 PM
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Well my question was not about Bail specifically, I was more worried about the implications for commanders being able to receive their own affects when it says allies. The way the FAQ words the answer is kind of misleading, as it only talks about being enelligable when it says followers, but makes no mention of when it says ally’s. Then it picks this nutty example to explain, without clarification. Crazy.
urbanjedi
Posted: Sunday, October 28, 2018 7:33:23 PM
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Jdimmick wrote:
Well my question was not about Bail specifically, I was more worried about the implications for commanders being able to receive their own affects when it says allies. The way the FAQ words the answer is kind of misleading, as it only talks about being enelligable when it says followers, but makes no mention of when it says ally’s. Then it picks this nutty example to explain, without clarification. Crazy.


Yeah, some of the early FAQ answers could have been worded better as well, or updated over the years, but WOTC never really updated examples at all.

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