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Poll Question : Should the balance committee discuss tempo control
Choice Votes Statistics
Yes, the balance committee must take action! 10 34.482758 %
Yes, I'd welcome a change but it's not a huge deal 6 20.689655 %
No, it's a problem v-set designers can fix. 6 20.689655 %
No, it's fine. Tempo control doesn't need fixed. 7 24.137931 %

Balance Committee question: Tempo Control (Ozzel, Dodonna, San Hill.) Options
DarkDracul
Posted: Monday, September 16, 2019 1:42:53 PM
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The balance committee wants to know how many active players support a change to tempo control (specifically lowering the number of activations per phase via; Ozzel, Dodonna, San Hill) before we discuss any errata/ban/floor-rule options.

TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 1:20:11 PM
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Ozzel plus Thrawn plus ability to cut through rocks with Morrigan/Pellaeon is clearly a very strong competitive build.

Dodonna gives New Republic and Rebels a big leg up, and they'd drop down the pack without him.

I like San Hill the way he is. He's a MTB counter with his reserves on 1, and he was released by WOTC well before the other two big tempo control pieces.
jen'ari
Posted: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 2:28:03 PM
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These polls... Proven to be rigged. Can't be trusted.
I would like to see ozzel banned before anything else happens.
General_Grievous
Posted: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 2:32:40 PM
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I don't know about a straight ban. I would rather see some more cheaper counters to just being out-activated in general. We actually had a CCC Week on it recently with some cool ideas. Also once you take out tempo control, and the 2 point characters that are already gone then you are left with people running 3 point swarms to achieve the same effect and it's not necessarily better in my opinion. Tech them to death. Also San Hill has always been fine to me, maybe that says something more about swap then it does about activation control/limits.
Caedus
Posted: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 3:48:54 PM
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10 for a change, 6 not.
HanSolo79
Posted: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 10:23:36 PM
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Don't change it
Naarkon
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 1:16:27 PM
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I would support changes to the pieces themselves instead of trying to design counters.

The problem with developing tech counters is that you have to use them for them to work. Act control is powerful and in a lot of squads, but not every top tier squad. I don't want to run a 50% useless tech piece in squads that are already tight on points, and if it's on a beefy piece or a piece with more uses than just to counter act control then the higher point cost means that it'll either fit in even fewer squads or limit squad building in whatever faction it is in, because it will be an auto-include.

I don't have a huge problem with the concept of act control (no huge problem with San Hill). I don't love it, but whatever. Ozzel pairing specifically so well with swap (I don't think anyone wants to ban Thrawn) and Dodonna being optional and so cheap are my main problems. They just do too much, without any counterplay (see above for why I don't think there ever will be good counterplay).
CorellianComedian
Posted: Thursday, September 19, 2019 1:25:49 PM
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Not an active player, so take this with a grain of salt: put the counter abilities on good pieces. Don't charge for things like Black Ops or Double Agent. Pieces that have them are costed as if they bring a significant benefit, and they don't, unless you happen to be facing tempo control.

There are two pieces with Black Ops, both Mandos, neither seem like a good choice for mainlining, and Mando Reinforcements are almost unheard of. There are 5 ways to get Double Agent - four of them are weird tech pieces (Roan Lands, Yak Face, Galen Erso, DJ). Captain Shevu has some potential - he's a solid shooter with a decent cannon shot CE; he's just limited by his subfaction.

So put Black Ops on a couple of pieces that don't need it, and then you'll be in business. Give it to a Republic Commando or something that fits well into an established squad type OR clearly establishes its own (something that can be competitive right out of the gate).

Otherwise, it's like Sith Hunter/Rebel Hunter/etc. Those abilities get incorporated into cost like they're Cunning Attack or Assassin, and you end up with a janky, overcosted piece.

Having a few Black Ops pieces won't solve the problem entirely, but if there are GOOD pieces that directly counter it, I think there'll be improvement.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, September 19, 2019 5:39:45 PM
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CorellianComedian wrote:
Not an active player, so take this with a grain of salt: put the counter abilities on good pieces. Don't charge for things like Black Ops or Double Agent. Pieces that have them are costed as if they bring a significant benefit, and they don't, unless you happen to be facing tempo control.

There are two pieces with Black Ops, both Mandos, neither seem like a good choice for mainlining, and Mando Reinforcements are almost unheard of. There are 5 ways to get Double Agent - four of them are weird tech pieces (Roan Lands, Yak Face, Galen Erso, DJ). Captain Shevu has some potential - he's a solid shooter with a decent cannon shot CE; he's just limited by his subfaction.

So put Black Ops on a couple of pieces that don't need it, and then you'll be in business. Give it to a Republic Commando or something that fits well into an established squad type OR clearly establishes its own (something that can be competitive right out of the gate).

Otherwise, it's like Sith Hunter/Rebel Hunter/etc. Those abilities get incorporated into cost like they're Cunning Attack or Assassin, and you end up with a janky, overcosted piece.

Having a few Black Ops pieces won't solve the problem entirely, but if there are GOOD pieces that directly counter it, I think there'll be improvement.


Good insight. You're approved for active player status again.
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, September 19, 2019 7:11:31 PM
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I agree too - stuff like Double Agent shouldn't cost anything as it doesn't come into play every game and makes pieces not cost efficient if it's not in play. I do think Roan Lands is viable (although 10 more HP wouldn't hurt), and would see more play if he wasn't in a faction that has Dodonna anyway.
jak
Posted: Friday, September 20, 2019 3:52:42 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
These polls... Proven to be rigged. Can't be trusted.
I would like to see ozzel banned before anything else happens.



I'm sure it's possible to rig the polls, I;d be interested in the proof.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, September 20, 2019 4:13:07 PM
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jak wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
These polls... Proven to be rigged. Can't be trusted.
I would like to see ozzel banned before anything else happens.



I'm sure it's possible to rig the polls, I;d be interested in the proof.


The "neutral" option (i.e. I don't really care) basically says "yes - but I don't really care". So you could argue that it's rigged toward yes since the second yes is really a neutral. Or you could argue that it's rigged toward no since there are 2 real no options but only 1 real yes option.

BigGrin
Caedus
Posted: Friday, September 20, 2019 5:50:46 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
jak wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
These polls... Proven to be rigged. Can't be trusted.
I would like to see ozzel banned before anything else happens.



I'm sure it's possible to rig the polls, I;d be interested in the proof.


The "neutral" option (i.e. I don't really care) basically says "yes - but I don't really care". So you could argue that it's rigged toward yes since the second yes is really a neutral. Or you could argue that it's rigged toward no since there are 2 real no options but only 1 real yes option.

BigGrin


Well the third option can be considered rigged as well. They are acknowledging there is an issue, but believe the designers are willing and/or capable to fix said problem.

So technically there are 20 "yes answers" and 6 "no answers"
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, September 20, 2019 8:05:56 PM
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Also, I voted 13 times.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Friday, September 20, 2019 11:27:39 PM
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I voted "No, it's a problem v-set designers can fix", but I still want the BC to discuss it because they're the experts, and I imagine that they can close the door on any floor rule or errata for tempo control, now or in the future.
DarthMaim
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2019 2:52:08 AM
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Looks like I missed the poll voting. My vote would have been the following;

Yes, the balance committee must take action!
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