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Points for Characters Added Later Options
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, August 5, 2013 7:05:43 PM
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Consider characters that come in after squads are revealed. How are their points determined? Here are my current understandings. Please correct me if I am wrong about any of them. Also, where is the latest glossary right now? I'm sure several of these are spelled out in the glossary, but the swmresources link in the sticky thread is broken and I don't see it anywhere else.

Worth points when defeated:
Reserves
Immediate Reserves
Characters that switch sides (Betrayal, Turn to the Dark Side, Internal Strife, etc.)

Not worth points when defeated:
Reinforcements
Rakghouls created by Rakghoul Disease

Versatility: A defeated character is worth the printed cost, not the cost of the original Versatility character. To win, you still need to earn as many points as the original squad's build cost.

Vehicle: A defeated character is worth the cost of the original Vehicle character. You cannot bring in a character that would be immediately defeated by the damage on the original character.

Dismount: You earn points for defeating the original character. You also earn points for defeating the newly added character.

Force Essence: You earn points for defeating the original character. You also earn points for defeating the newly added character.


Again, please let me know if any of these are wrong. Also, let me know if I missed any abilities that have a similar effect.

===
Edit: I made corrections to Dismount and Force Essence based on Sithborg's response.
Edit #2 (7 years later): Vehicle was changed a long time ago to prevent abuses mentioned in this thread. I've changed it above to the correct interpretation. The potential abuse was to drop an almost-dead Vehicle character for a much-cheaper version of the character that dies immediately. That would have denied your opponent the points for killing the Vehicle character, and instead give them a lot less points for the new character. That could have saved something like 40pts - enough to swing a game. That's no longer possible.
Sithborg
Posted: Monday, August 5, 2013 7:20:47 PM
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Last I checked, you do score points for characters brought in via Dismount and Force Essence.

Also, you do know that you win if you defeat all the characters in the opposing squad. The points only matter in case of tie.

If you have a concern with that, you need to either bring it up with the designers or The Celestial Warrior, as that concern seems more about tournament play, than the actual rules. I do not errata base on balance issues unless the designers say so.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, August 5, 2013 7:31:46 PM
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Okay, thanks. I think I just assumed that Force Essence and Dismount had their cost built into the original character so they wouldn't be worth points (like reinforcements) - without ever checking to see what was really the case.

Regarding Vehicle and tournament play, I guess it doesn't affect me much since I'm hardly ever in tournaments. It just looks bad to me.

I know if you defeat all the opposing characters you win, but I thought the skirmish ended at the end of a round when a player has as many points as the total cost of the opposing player's squad (typically 200). If you add in a few rounds of gambit, that would mean you could reach that 200 points (ending the skirmish) before defeating the whole opposing squad. Is that incorrect?
Galactic Funk
Posted: Monday, August 5, 2013 7:53:57 PM
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Yes FA, that is my understanding as well. You add your gambit points plus the total of characters you have defeated and if your cumulative total hits 200 you are the victor. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

This probably isn't the place for the discussion but I don't like the potential for shenanigans in a close game with Grievous. The cost difference w/ the Mauls and Durges aren't too big a deal. The Grievous cost differences can be substantial though. Granted the Kaleesh Warrior version only has 70 hp's so you would have to drop the wheelbike at a point where he hadn't taken much damage yet. The HoH one is going to be by far the most swapped piece and with a 19 point cost differential is a concern. You get the benefit of the new wheelbike version and as long as you have 20 hp's left you can swap for Hypori and save yourself 19 points before he goes down. That clearly has the potential to swing the points for a victory in a close game.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, August 5, 2013 7:56:37 PM
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Galactic Funk wrote:
Yes FA, that is my understanding as well. You add your gambit points plus the total of characters you have defeated and if your cumulative total hits 200 you are the victor. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

This probably isn't the place for the discussion but I don't like the potential for shenanigans in a close game with Grievous. The cost difference w/ the Mauls and Durges aren't too big a deal. The Grievous cost differences can be substantial though. Granted the Kaleesh Warrior version only has 70 hp's so you would have to drop the wheelbike at a point where he hadn't taken much damage yet. The HoH one is going to be by far the most swapped piece and with a 19 point cost differential is a concern. You get the benefit of the new wheelbike version and as long as you have 20 hp's left you can swap for Hypori and save yourself 19 points before he goes down. That clearly has the potential to swing the points for a victory in a close game.


I haven't seen the glossary entry, but I didn't see where you had to have enough HP to absorb the damage. Swapping for Kaleesh Warrior would kill him immediately if he's taken too much damage, but I don't see from the wording on the card why that is disallowed. Characters take more damage than their HP all the time when attack damage exceeds their HP - they're just defeated when it happens is all. (But that question is another Rules thread, though... just started it.)
Sithborg
Posted: Monday, August 5, 2013 8:07:29 PM
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Just a warning. Don't expect to get victory points for a replaced Vehicle. You cannot make the original character count as defeated, with how Unique works in this game, and bring in another version of that character.
Galactic Funk
Posted: Monday, August 5, 2013 8:16:51 PM
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I've been having issues with the Character section of bloo all day and I can't pull up the VoW set to see the wording but if I recall you swap out the Vehicle at the end of your turn and any damage you have taken up to that point is applied to the character you are bringing in.

That being said you can't swap during someone else's turn when you are defeated or likely even on your own turn via riposte/ AoO or something else.

S
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, August 5, 2013 10:05:38 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
Just a warning. Don't expect to get victory points for a replaced Vehicle. You cannot make the original character count as defeated, with how Unique works in this game, and bring in another version of that character.


I wouldn't expect that. I just thought the new character would be worth the cost of the original piece when defeated.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 7:16:27 AM
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Bump since I made an edit.
adamb0nd
Posted: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 8:08:19 AM
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Interesting. So a rebel squad maximizing versatility for pt. reduction would would require its opponent to score 60 pts of gambit to win, assuming it's not completely annihilated or bringing in more points through reserves or team flipping abilities.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 10:40:33 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Interesting. So a rebel squad maximizing versatility for pt. reduction would would require its opponent to score 60 pts of gambit to win, assuming it's not completely annihilated or bringing in more points through reserves or team flipping abilities.


I didn't do the math, but probably. I doubt that taking the cheapest possible versions of characters via Versatility is a winning strategy.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, January 3, 2021 6:58:32 AM
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Since the potential abuse is similar (even if less likely), I really think camaraderie needs to be the same ruling as vehicle.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Sunday, January 3, 2021 7:35:55 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Since the potential abuse is similar (even if less likely), I really think camaraderie needs to be the same ruling as vehicle.


Did you mean Versatility? With Versatility, you don't get the benefit of using the stronger character if you swap out at the start of the skirmish. With Vehicle (before the rule change), you could have had the benefit of using the strong character for most of the skirmish while denying points from your opponent by swapping right before they died.

If you meant Camaraderie, could you be more specific?
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, January 3, 2021 10:01:23 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Since the potential abuse is similar (even if less likely), I really think camaraderie needs to be the same ruling as vehicle.


Did you mean Versatility? With Versatility, you don't get the benefit of using the stronger character if you swap out at the start of the skirmish. With Vehicle (before the rule change), you could have had the benefit of using the strong character for most of the skirmish while denying points from your opponent by swapping right before they died.

If you meant Camaraderie, could you be more specific?


Yes, whoops - versatility.

And I understand your point, but abuse is still possible. As pointed out - you’d have to earn 6 rounds of gambit to reach the build total. I fear this more can effect less 3pt victories and 3pt denial. Especially since there is a diplomat option involved. You could be facing a squad without efficient diplomat removal (perhaps a melee based squad) and that could be used as a block to stall out.

I really feel like the build total should change to what the new total is with the new pieces, or you should earn points from the original piece.
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