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At this point I wish we could just ban Poggle, and I'm saying that as the person who has probably played him in more competitive games than anyone else. Two point figures are a bad idea, period, and when they're two point figures with self destruct 20 and the ability to come back to life, well, that's too much. Unless your opponent has disruption or blaster barrage they can easily clog up the board and prevent your opponent from being able to do much of anything.
Aside of him, I think we're OK. I would prefer to make the mouse droid less of an obnoxious piece any number of different ways, and I wish that deathshots did not exist in any form, especially the ridiculous Naboo squads, but neither one is anywhere near as obnoxious as Poggle to me.
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Echo24 wrote:I'm curious as to what your ideas for an alternative to the Ugnaught is at 3-4 points (as far as I'm concerned, 2 point pieces should never have been a possibility in the first place). The role an Ugnaught plays is purely destroying doors, and you can't get much different than Satchel Charge without getting over 4 points. What would the cost be for a chumpy piece who could use shatterbeam once per game? The new ugnaught with shatterbeam is really good in Tarpals squads, but at 15 points I would rarely put him in anything else.
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leshippy wrote:Uggies overpowerd, underpriced, or broken......BOOM! That was my head that just exploded......but yet i am still able to type. Well, when you have to counter THE most broken element in this game, you will have to be slightly powered up. Not too many remember the pre Gambit, pre Uggie lock out days.
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Sithborg wrote:leshippy wrote:Uggies overpowerd, underpriced, or broken......BOOM! That was my head that just exploded......but yet i am still able to type. Well, when you have to counter THE most broken element in this game, you will have to be slightly powered up. Not too many remember the pre Gambit, pre Uggie lock out days. Oh yes....those days. My friend who taught me how to play star wars minis demonstrated in a game how vital it was to pack door control. Needless to say I never could get the door open with my scrubs as they were summarily picked off one by one, while his R2 from Rebel Storm kept opening and closing it at leisure.
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thereisnotry wrote:I think it's once again important to distinguish between Broken and NPE (negative play experience). Different people have different NPEs...I love Mace, but others hate him. I hate the stinkin' Naboo Pilots/Troopers with deathshots, but others love them. That's just part of any game that is as long-lived and as complex/deep as ours.
There are actually very few pieces I would consider broken. Maybe none. Here is my definition for broken: A piece that is so dominant and powerful that it consistently wins tournaments, even at the hands of sub-par players. Is there any piece that dominates play right now?
--GOWK did, several years ago...you either played GOWK (or GOWK-hate) or you lost. There was no other option.
--There was also the tempo control issue (Dodonna/San/Ozzel) for a while, where you either played activation control or a mass-kill piece (yobuck/lancer/arica) or you lost. But even then, I'm sure that some people would classify tempo control pieces as NPEs or meta-shapers, and not as broken.
--I would probably consider Lord Hoth broken (esp paired with Bastilla) at the Epic 500pt level, because there are very few squads that can counter a well-built and well-played Hoth squad at 500.
There are dozens of pieces that I consider NPEs. NPEs are pieces/combos that are certainly powerful and game-changing, but they either don't win consistently, or they have some glaring weaknesses. NPEs are pieces that have mechanics/abilities that can be abused and/or exploited to gain a strangle-hold on the game in one way or another. I think that probably most of the pieces people call "broken" are actually just NPEs.
--Sorry, Bastilla is not broken. She's powerful, and she's a game-changer for sure. But the best Bastilla squad at Gencon this year rolled over and died in the first round of the playoffs. She won Gencon 2011, but hasn't done much since then. She's certainly an NPE for many people, though.
--Mace is not broken either. He may have won Gencon this year (and I, for one, and not sad about that!) but that was 2 sets ago, and there are now so many ways to beat him that he didn't even make a dent at the recent MI Regional.
--Atton Jaq Rand is absolutely not broken. He's rock-solid good for his points, and I honestly hope that we never see another piece as under-costed as he is, but he's not broken. He doesn't dominate the game.
--R2 Astromech is certainly strong, and has been for years. I wasn't playing when RotS was released, but I can imagine that he might well have been broken at that time, when there were no other movement breakers. I think that WotC probably didn't realize at the time just how powerful the movement-breaking mechanic (esp with Flight!) was for the game, and so they cost him at a mere 9pts. There's no question that R2 remains a huge bargain, but he's not broken.
And there are probably a dozen pieces which I'd think would be completely fine with just 1 or 2 minor adjustments.
--Mouse Droids...give them a new SA and they'll be fine: Diminutive (This piece does not provide cover, and it moves to an empty adjacent square when an enemy enters its square). This would remove the whole dumb Mouse-Wall problem which has plagued the game since the piece was released.
--Poggle the Lesser...make it Self-Destruct 10 (rather than 20) and REMOVE THE RAPPORT! and he'll be fine. We don't ever need another 2pt piece...especially not one that hits you for 20dmg when it dies.
--Mace...drop Flurry and he'd be fine.
Anyway, I could continue to add to these last 2 lists for a long time, but these are my thoughts. Take them for what they're worth. :) All these are very good points. Although I think the main issue with Mace isn't flurry but instead his Force Absorb. That he can take away your ability to block a crit with lightsaber defense is infuriating at times. I personally have no issues with his having flurry as it rewards you as the player for rolling well. In most games I've seen Mace's crits are wasted on either someone who is almost dead, or a low cost/low hitpoints peice. If the opponent manages to score a crit on a full health beatstick, good for him. I won't complain about it, because at 65pts mace should be good. In a game where he only does 60 dmg total, he's not worth his points. To be worth his points he needs to roll crits. I don't know if there is a way to change peices like poggle and mouse droids, but I think it would help the game a lot. Now as for a couple more I'd like to add to this topic: Any mini with Diplomat. Nothing is more infuriating than having a wall of nobles completely shut down a vong squad. I don't consider it a "broken" ability, but a NPE for sure. I think one way to fix the diplomat problem is quite simple. Change the rulling on Lightsaber Sweep to work like it did originally. WotC originally had it where when you did a lightsaber sweep you could attack diplomats since it didn't count as an targeted attack. Lightsaber sweep still works wonders at getting around Jar Jar Binks Bombad Gungan. Lord Kaan. Now I know in past posts I have slammed this guy as broken. I have to retract that claim. He's not broken. There are strategies now in place within the Rebels and Mando's to deal with him effectively. But is he a NPE? Heck yeah! It's not fun at all to see all your 80 HP and below minis fail the save and die instantly. Revan and Lord Kaan is an evil combo. No one likes to go against a 22 range mini nuclear missile.
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i hate playing against diplomats. i don't even know how to kill them :(
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DaKeyring wrote:i hate playing against diplomats. i don't even know how to kill them :( A few things: 1). eliminate witnesses. Ie: find an angle that none of your pieces have LOS to another enemy. Sometimes easier said than done. 2). A piece with Indiscriminate. Most of these are V-Set pieces but if you use Watto and give a piece Savage then add in Sith Wrangler/Malakili, you have someone that knocks them out of the way. 3). Area of effect special abilities/Force Powers: Force Storm/Repulse/Unleash the Force or War Throat/Painful Screech. These abilities do not target so Diplomat is not in affect.
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greentime wrote:I wish that deathshots did not exist in any form, especially the ridiculous Naboo squads. Hooray for the ridulous Naboo squads! ROFL... 
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Also, you can't Diplomat a Diplomat. In other words, if only Diplomats are in LOS, they are legal targets as Diplomats cannot affect each other. It would an instance of SA stacking. Much like a Bodyguard cannot absorb damage from an adjacent Bodyguard.
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Seriously, lol@anyone who thinks Mace isn't overpowered. I certainly will be the first to welcome them back to reality when they return.
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Darth_Reignir wrote:Seriously, lol@anyone who thinks Mace isn't overpowered. I certainly will be the first to welcome them back to reality when they return. I think that you said in another thread recently that your group largely plays group games with 5 players on the same map? If that's the case, I can see why Mace would be an absolute powerhouse. I imagine that format would favour squads with individually powerful pieces, and de-emphasize other more fragile squad types. In that context, it would make sense to house rule him and tone him down a bit. Before the v-sets, fragile and fiddly squad types like Lancers, Han Cannons, and Thrawn swaps were some of the best squads at 200 points - some of the less technical, beefier squads have had to be upgraded a lot by the v-sets in order to keep up. In a regular 200 point game 1 on 1 game, Mace is a very good piece, but there are plenty of counters to him. Admittedly he did win GenCon last year, but I'd give thereisnotry credit for playing well as much as anything. I think with the IG-88s potentially being popular this Regional season, he won't see as much action in 200 point games this year. Already, we had Michigan Regional and LowerHuttACon 2013 over the weekend, and there were 32 different squads and absolutely no one ran Mace.
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corranhorn wrote:Bastila JM. But that's a tired debate. I kinda agree, and even with this I think it's a bit powerful, but I wonder how many people who say she's WAY WAY WAY over the top realize that ABM (if I understand correctly) is interrupted and thus canceled if she is damaged, if she makes a roll or attacks, and I think if she moves?
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Darth_Reignir wrote:Seriously, lol@anyone who thinks Mace isn't overpowered. I certainly will be the first to welcome them back to reality when they return. He really isn't. Top tier, yes, but not overpowered. He's got two major glaring weaknesses: His weakness to ranged units, and his reliance on criticals. He's hard pressed to defend himself from ranged attackers as it will make him burn his force rapidly and if he can't crit (either by luck or enemy abilities), then his damage output becomes not worth his cost. He's simply a walking slot machine and people tend to hold a grudge against the mini when he hits the jackpot. All this, to most vets, is just like how many people were complaining about Boba Fett, BH because of the rare occurrences where he started off the game by one-shot killing the opponent's main beatstick.
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EmporerDragon wrote:He's simply a walking slot machine and people tend to hold a grudge against the mini when he hits the jackpot. All this, to most vets, is just like how many people were complaining about Boba Fett, BH because of the rare occurrences where he started off the game by one-shot killing the opponent's main beatstick. +1
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swinefeld wrote:EmporerDragon wrote:He's simply a walking slot machine and people tend to hold a grudge against the mini when he hits the jackpot. All this, to most vets, is just like how many people were complaining about Boba Fett, BH because of the rare occurrences where he started off the game by one-shot killing the opponent's main beatstick. +1 +2. Boba BH was called "broken" by tons of people, but never was. Mace is the modern Boba BH.
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Echo24 wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:leshippy wrote:Uggies overpowerd, underpriced, or broken......BOOM! That was my head that just exploded......but yet i am still able to type. No... just not enough alternatives for the role they play in a squad. I'm one of the few clamoring for more 2-4 pt alternatives. As long as they are little tech pieces that are situational and not useful in great numbers - and not combat pieces. (We didn't need 2pt Seps with self-destruct.) I'm curious as to what your ideas for an alternative to the Ugnaught is at 3-4 points (as far as I'm concerned, 2 point pieces should never have been a possibility in the first place). The role an Ugnaught plays is purely destroying doors, and you can't get much different than Satchel Charge without getting over 4 points. The Ugnaught's role (like the other 3-pt pieces) isn't just door control. It's also activations, opening doors, blocking. The design team has done a great job creating options for door control, but the need for low-cost activations remains. Unless you have a use for Brutes/Mice, you still need the activations so you might as well take the uggies to get the door control and kill 2 birds with one stone. So it wouldn't need to be more door control on a 3-pt piece. There are lots of other door control options. It's just that Uggies are so convenient because they also provide activations. If you bring along a higher cost piece with Satchel Charge or enough override, the door control is covered. So maybe you go without Ugnaughts... but you then just fall to Mice or Brutes for your activations. You might take Mice even if don't need to propagate the CEs... just for the blocking/defense. Or take Brutes for a little offense. Or even just one more Ugnaught just to be safe on the door control. Whatever you do, it's hard to go with none of them because then you wind up opening doors with your higher cost pieces, and/or leaving them vulnerable without any cannon fodder in front, and/or getting out-activated. So most of the time you pack in 3pt activations, and you're picking from just those 3 options most of the time. I'd like to see other low-cost situational tech that can also open doors, provide activations, and be cannon fodder. I've posted some of these in the suggestions thread before, but a few options... 3 pt shooter with severe handicap... like Speed 2 or even Emplacement. Or is automatically defeated if an enemy ends its turn adjacent. Something so severe that this character is just a throw-in, never something to build a swarm squad around. 3 pt melee option as an alternative to the Brute. Maybe less mobility but another point on atk/def. Or worse stats and a slightly better SA. 3 pt Cloaked non-attacker for some sneaky swap fodder. 3pt Unique Emplacement with Override for adjacent doors only. (Or Rival with itself instead of Unique.) 3pt non-attacker where there is a door check every time this character moves adjacent to a door, so he can walk through multiple doors in a turn. (plus a normal door check at the end of his turn) 3pt droid 'assistant' that chooses an ally at the beginning of the skirmish. While adjacent, adds 1 (or 2?) to any save that character makes. 3pt non-attacker with 20hp and nothing else. (And no way to gain Bodyguard.) 3 pointer with a specific immunity/defense. Like Density Projector or something else that's very situational, but you might bring in with Lobot versus the right squad. Perhaps especially Density Projector now that Caedus is running around. Just a few thoughts. Probably half of those are broken, but I'm sure some of them could work. Give something Rival with itself, and I'd favor a 2-pt piece, too. I just don't want to see any (more) swarms of 2pt pieces.
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1. 3 pt shooters cannot be fringe. Not happening. The stats would have to be worse than a Battle Droid. I'm already uncomfortable with the amount of 4 pts shooters available.
2. Why? A 3 pt guy should not be a viable attack option based on stats alone. A 3 pt fig with more than 10 dam is something that can break things way too easily.
3. Swap has been a top tier squad since COTF. It does not need help.
4. Yeah, not going to see that kind of ability. We are set on door opening/closing abilities. I'm not eager to overcomplicate the tiers of door opening abilities we have now (especially since Advanced Door Gimmick required too much rules gymnastics to work). Anything else will be on the level of Door Gimmick, and I'm not sure that is worth adding to that level. And Rival with itself does not work, as it would not be able to be in a squad with itself.
5. Makes no sense. It just ignores doors while moving. There is absolutely no benefit, unless it is able to attack, which we go back to the issues of a 3 pt attacker.
6. Not overly usefull. Will be beat by Ugs and Mice.
7. No point to it then, as it will do nothing.
8. Again, what is the need to run it, as they won't be doing much else.
The uggnaught is what it is, because it needed to be that cheap, expendable, and able to fit into a squad due to the sheer brokeness of Override. Gambit was made due to this issue as well. Needless to say, Rob did not fully intend this to be a tournament game when created. There are so many factors you have to look at, when creating a piece in that price range. There is really no need for more Fringe pieces in that price range. There is a razor thing margin for error, where either the piece will be useless or cause balance issues. That is a big reason why the designers will avoid this type of piece.
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2-3 point pieces, even if they can't do anything still encourage spam activations. Spinning a pile of junk pieces in the back rows doesn't make for interesting games. I like cheap combined fire though. 
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all the stupid impulsive abilities are stupidly stupid (did i mention they are stupid). they should have stuck with only impulsive shot, sweep and savagery, as THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT MAKE SENSE!!! Who ever heard of anyone becoming more sensitive to the force after someone died (impulsive force renewal), or someone suddenly getting the ability to do an extra attack? (impulsive twin attack) What were you thinking WOTC? NO. JUST NO.
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