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Overpowerful, Underpriced, or Broken Characters Options
DaKeyring
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:48:51 AM
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also all the overpowered force powers, like force push 5, Lightning 5 and lightsaber throw 4 (is there even one of them?). they suck, and they ruin the game.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:53:45 AM
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Darth_Reignir wrote:
Seriously, lol@anyone who thinks Mace isn't overpowered. I certainly will be the first to welcome them back to reality when they return.


I play in a group where Mace is popular. Popular, but certainly not overpowered. If you play in a small group and never venture outside it AND primarily play on one map, then it's pretty obvious why you have problems with certain figures.

I should note that I don't play Mace...he's not my style. If I saw that he was negatively affecting the game, you can bet I'd be vocal about him. Much like LV or Boba, if the rolls don't go your way in playing him, you're in trouble. That's reality.
UrbanShmi
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 3:17:47 AM
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Mace is powerful, no doubt (I played him all last Regional season, including at GenCon, so I know whereof I speak). He's also fragile and VERY situational. And at 65 points, he's a third of your squad. And chances are he's more like two-thirds or even three-quarters of your damage potential. In my experience, for him to be worth it, he has to reliably take out probably 100-120 points of your opponent's squad. Maybe more, depending on the squad type. That might be different in a build with GOWK (I played him with General Skywalker for the momentum, which means more damage potential but less defense). Yes, it can suck to be on the receiving end when everything goes right with him, but most of the time, it doesn't. Most of the time, he dies within the first three rounds, and you have to try to clean up with your support pieces. If you can neutralize your opponent's main threats in the first three rounds, then you probably win. Otherwise, it's going to be a hard slog.

With that said, there are certainly abilities he could lose and still work in the competitive game. I'm just not willing to claim that he's overpowered, all things considered. To me, he's far too situational for that. As someone pointed out above, Mace won GenCon, and yet no one played him at either of the big tournaments this weekend. Some of that is people moving on and wanting to play with new stuff. But some of that is just realizing that, at most events, his weaknesses outweigh his strengths, so it might be better to go with something more balanced overall.

With all that said, if it's a choice between banning or modifying certain pieces and just not playing the game at all, do what you have to do to keep it fun and interesting. It's possible that the more your group gets into the V-sets, the more interested they'll get in a different style of play. Or maybe not. Either way is fine, as long as you all keep playing.
DaKeyring
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 3:27:39 AM
Rank: B'omarr Monk
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Joined: 3/26/2013
Posts: 32
i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Mace windu figure everyone keeps calling over powered is [Master Windu], cos if that is the case then i am in full affirmative
markedman247
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 4:04:05 AM
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DaKeyring wrote:
i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Mace windu figure everyone keeps calling over powered is [Master Windu], cos if that is the case then i am in full affirmative


The Windu in question is Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side, the V-Set piece. Master Windu is the WotC piece that was considered, by many, as underpowered for cost.
Echo24
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 5:25:38 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:

If you bring along a higher cost piece with Satchel Charge or enough override, the door control is covered. So maybe you go without Ugnaughts... but you then just fall to Mice or Brutes for your activations. You might take Mice even if don't need to propagate the CEs... just for the blocking/defense. Or take Brutes for a little offense. Or even just one more Ugnaught just to be safe on the door control. Whatever you do, it's hard to go with none of them because then you wind up opening doors with your higher cost pieces, and/or leaving them vulnerable without any cannon fodder in front, and/or getting out-activated. So most of the time you pack in 3pt activations, and you're picking from just those 3 options most of the time.


This is kind of my point. The whole purpose of the Ugnaught Demo IS door control. If you have door control covered, you don't bring more Ugnaughts, because there are 2 other, better 3 point options. In the 2010 GenCon championship I won the title without playing a single Ugnaught in all 9 games I played. Why? Because I had triple override in my base squad and would often bring in a 4th Override piece with Lobot (and possibly a 5th if my opponent was also packing a lot of Override). I didn't want the doors to be blown up; Ugnaughts were my enemy. So I brought in Mouse Droids instead. I had Princess Leia's CE to extend, sure, but mostly I brought them in as defensive fodder. So right there I chose something else over an Ugnaught, because I didn't need more door control, and door control is the purpose of the Ugnaught. If I wanted another small attacker (to, say, go kill Ugnaughts!) I would have brought in a Rodian Brute.

If you want to fill a role other than destroying doors, a Mouse Droid or a Rodian Brute are both better options, so the role that an Ugnaught plays is destroying doors.

Right now we have 3 Fringe pieces that cost 3 points, and I think they each have pretty good places in the game. The Ugnaught blows up doors, but is the worst defensively. The Mouse Droid extends CEs and is the best defensively, but is the only one that doesn't have an attack at all. The Rodian Brute is the best offensively and is the most mobile, and also is a medium base so he works in swap squads. Sithborg pointed out some of the flaws in your ideas, but I do think another 3 pointer that fills another niche like the 3 existing ones is a possibility, but I don't really see a need or a desire for it (from anyone but you, of course). As Scott pointed out, it's very hard to balance things at that level, so it would be a risky design no matter what, and I just don't see the need for it.
obiwan1knight
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 5:50:51 AM
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DaKeyring wrote:
also all the overpowered force powers, like force push 5, Lightning 5 and lightsaber throw 4 (is there even one of them?). they suck, and they ruin the game.


I have to completely disagree with you on that one. Those powers are what make this game so much fun! And it's not too powerful in any way, because they take so many Force points, and may be hard to set up. Also, there are only 1 or 2 characters that even have those abilities. It's not every force user that even deserves those kind of force power.
Mando
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 6:11:23 AM
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Echo24 wrote:


Right now we have 3 Fringe pieces that cost 3 points, and I think they each have pretty good places in the game. The Ugnaught blows up doors, but is the worst defensively. The Mouse Droid extends CEs and is the best defensively, but is the only one that doesn't have an attack at all. The Rodian Brute is the best offensively and is the most mobile, and also is a medium base so he works in swap squads. Sithborg pointed out some of the flaws in your ideas, but I do think another 3 pointer that fills another niche like the 3 existing ones is a possibility, but I don't really see a need or a desire for it (from anyone but you, of course). As Scott pointed out, it's very hard to balance things at that level, so it would be a risky design no matter what, and I just don't see the need for it.


Yub yub! Smile

Aren't you forgetting our furry little mainstays prior to uggnaughts? Back in the day, people used Ewoks quite often. Just thought I'd give these little guys some love and make sure they are the 4th fringe piece that costs 3pts. They may not blow doors up or have high defense or run over logs all that well, but they can hold open doors and act all cute while doing so.
Echo24
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 6:39:16 AM
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Mando wrote:
Echo24 wrote:


Right now we have 3 Fringe pieces that cost 3 points, and I think they each have pretty good places in the game. The Ugnaught blows up doors, but is the worst defensively. The Mouse Droid extends CEs and is the best defensively, but is the only one that doesn't have an attack at all. The Rodian Brute is the best offensively and is the most mobile, and also is a medium base so he works in swap squads. Sithborg pointed out some of the flaws in your ideas, but I do think another 3 pointer that fills another niche like the 3 existing ones is a possibility, but I don't really see a need or a desire for it (from anyone but you, of course). As Scott pointed out, it's very hard to balance things at that level, so it would be a risky design no matter what, and I just don't see the need for it.


Yub yub! Smile

Aren't you forgetting our furry little mainstays prior to uggnaughts? Back in the day, people used Ewoks quite often. Just thought I'd give these little guys some love and make sure they are the 4th fringe piece that costs 3pts. They may not blow doors up or have high defense or run over logs all that well, but they can hold open doors and act all cute while doing so.


Haha, how could I forget? There are the Ewoks, whose place is to.... be furry, I guess? The original filler piece.
Sithborg
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 6:51:39 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
2-3 point pieces, even if they can't do anything still encourage spam activations. Spinning a pile of junk pieces in the back rows doesn't make for interesting games.

I like cheap combined fire though. Wink



The only problem with that is that they must inherently be a shooter. Subject to all the other bonuses that can come with it. A very fine line to walk. See Mouse Droids and Roger, Roger and Advanced Battle Meditation.
swinefeld
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 7:43:16 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
2-3 point pieces, even if they can't do anything still encourage spam activations. Spinning a pile of junk pieces in the back rows doesn't make for interesting games.

I like cheap combined fire though. Wink



The only problem with that is that they must inherently be a shooter. Subject to all the other bonuses that can come with it. A very fine line to walk. See Mouse Droids and Roger, Roger and Advanced Battle Meditation.


Yep.
To be honest, it's pretty well covered already. Every faction has a shooter in the 4-6 point range (except Vong of course). The problem is getting them in position to combine without dying.
AndyHatton
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 7:54:03 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
2-3 point pieces, even if they can't do anything still encourage spam activations. Spinning a pile of junk pieces in the back rows doesn't make for interesting games.

I like cheap combined fire though. Wink



The only problem with that is that they must inherently be a shooter. Subject to all the other bonuses that can come with it. A very fine line to walk. See Mouse Droids and Roger, Roger and Advanced Battle Meditation.


Yep.
To be honest, it's pretty well covered already. Every faction has a shooter in the 4-6 point range (except Vong of course). The problem is getting them in position to combine without dying.


The Vong sorta do in the Peace Brigade Thug since he works better there.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:09:49 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
2-3 point pieces, even if they can't do anything still encourage spam activations. Spinning a pile of junk pieces in the back rows doesn't make for interesting games.

I like cheap combined fire though. Wink



The spam activations are already there. I'd just rather see more variety in them.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:19:51 AM
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Echo24 wrote:
Right now we have 3 Fringe pieces that cost 3 points, and I think they each have pretty good places in the game... I do think another 3 pointer that fills another niche like the 3 existing ones is a possibility, but I don't really see a need or a desire for it


Sounds like we see things the same way regarding those 3... choose door control, offense, or defense.

I'd just prefer to see more variety when it comes to the last 20 points of a squad. 1000+ pieces, tons of options in the meta, beatsticks, movement breakers, CEs, etc. But (usually) just 3 options when it comes to making sure you have a bit of cannon fodder/activations. *shrug*
swinefeld
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:21:34 AM
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AndyHatton wrote:
The Vong sorta do in the Peace Brigade Thug since he works better there.


Yeah, I was just focusing on actual faction pieces.

FlyingArrow wrote:
The spam activations are already there. I'd just rather see more variety in them.


Well, I'm not 100% against the idea. If spam activations aren't really benefitting a squad (besides activations), there is perhaps a bit more incentive to use less of them in favor of better support. If new cheap pieces have some utility for the squad, I think it would increase the incentive to max out acts.

I dunno, we have Poggle/Drones. A few pieces that aren't anywhere near that level of annoyance probably wouldn't break the game.

Perhaps some single-use pieces that do one thing and then are defeated (end of turn, phase or round) akin to the Sith Pawn minus self-destruct. Rangefinders, Pathfinders, small area effect bonuses, stuff like that.

getting off topic here though...
PrimeClone
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 3:37:30 PM
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Mas Amedda,
by far the most broken piece in the game. The original game changer and game breaker. All of the swap crapp is made possible through him. The mouse droids are just the answer to him. Something that encourages abuse begets more abuse.

Cheers
TheHutts
Posted: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 6:58:00 PM
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markedman247 wrote:
DaKeyring wrote:
i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Mace windu figure everyone keeps calling over powered is [Master Windu], cos if that is the case then i am in full affirmative


The Windu in question is Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side, the V-Set piece. Master Windu is the WotC piece that was considered, by many, as underpowered for cost.


This reminds me of the leaked draft flavour text on Windu LotLS:
"RM - that Mace from the final set. It sucked so bad I can't even remember its name." - Grand Moff Boris
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:37:18 AM
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I didn't have time to address these comments earlier, but fwiw...

Sithborg wrote:
1. 3 pt shooters cannot be fringe. Not happening. The stats would have to be worse than a Battle Droid. I'm already uncomfortable with the amount of 4 pts shooters available.


More importantly, they need a devastating handicap. Something like... 'may not combine fire', 'not subject to CEs', 'Speed 2', 'automatically defeated if your initiative roll is less than 20'. Something like that.
===
Quote:
2. Why? A 3 pt guy should not be a viable attack option based on stats alone. A 3 pt fig with more than 10 dam is something that can break things way too easily.


I said slightly higher atk/def, not higher damage. I agree higher dmg would be bad. I was not advocating for a viable attack option. Just something different from the Rodian Brute - not stronger. Maybe you decide between the Brute's stable footing or another piece's +1Attack. Like...

Duros Brute: HP 10 Def 14 Atk 5 Dmg 10, Melee Attack
====
Quote:

5. Makes no sense. It just ignores doors while moving. There is absolutely no benefit, unless it is able to attack, which we go back to the issues of a 3 pt attacker.

It would be able to walk through a door and stand at a spot to hold open a door farther up in the map. Or hold open two doors by standing next to two of them. Just a better door opener is all. With a higher def (not as high as a mouse) but no attacks, it could be useful in some builds.
===
re:3pt droid 'assistant' that chooses an ally at the beginning of the skirmish. While adjacent, adds 1 (or 2?) to any save that character makes.
Quote:
6. Not overly usefull. Will be beat by Ugs and Mice.

If there are no CEs to propagate and door control is covered, perhaps not. And if +1 is too weak, it could be +2 or +3 or +4. Whatever balances it.
===
re:3pt non-attacker with 20hp and nothing else. (And no way to gain Bodyguard.)
Quote:

7. No point to it then, as it will do nothing.

If you're just taking it to be cannon fodder, 20hp could be more useful than 10hp. If 20 is useless, then perhaps 30hp. Basically, if you're only taking a Mouse for blocking/door opening, perhaps blocking with a lower defense but more HP would be preferred.

Malfunctioning Droid: HP 30 Def 16 Atk 0 Dmg 0, Droid, Speed 4
===
re:3 pointer with a specific immunity/defense. Like Density Projector or something else that's very situational, but you might bring in with Lobot versus the right squad. Perhaps especially Density Projector now that Caedus is running around.
Quote:

8. Again, what is the need to run it, as they won't be doing much else.

Reinforcements option.
===

I understand you oppose new 3 point pieces. You said everything was either broken or pointless, but tweaking to make a broken piece weaker or a pointless piece stronger could find the right balance. There's not a great desire to do so, and the margin for error is thin, but it could be done. (And with the thin margin, it'd be better to err on the side of making them too weak.)
adamb0nd
Posted: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:46:57 AM
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What about a unique 3 point option? prevents complete abuse.
AndyHatton
Posted: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:53:21 AM
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Joined: 8/9/2009
Posts: 1,935
adamb0nd wrote:
What about a unique 3 point option? prevents complete abuse.

Maybe something like

Shmi Skywalker
Unique
Melee Attack
Slave
Cost 3
HP 10
Defense 16
Atk 1
Dmg 10
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