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Let's add this to the thought process - using the infamous BlooMilk ratings!:
Up to 6.0p
Old Republic Recruit [LotF 2] 2.92 (77)
Old Republic Scout [LotF 3] 5.03 (67)
Old Republic Soldier [CotF 6] 5.09 (56)
Old Republic Commander [CotF 5] 5.23 (56)
Carth Onasi [KotOR 3] 5.66 (98)
Old Republic Guard [KotOR 8] 5.72 (68)
Old Republic Tech Specialist [DotF 4] 5.89 (28)
Jedi Sith Hunter [MotF 4] 5.92 (59)
6.0 to 7.0
Wookiee Trooper [KotOR 12] 6.17 (72)
Elite Old Republic Soldier [SnV 2] 6.20 (10)
Old Republic Jedi Knight [JvS 1] 6.25 (8)
Jedi Guardian [CotF 3] 6.64 (59)
Admiral Saul Karath [RaR 1] 6.72 (25)
Smuggler [GH 4] 6.86 (7)
Old Republic Rookie [GH 3] 6.88 (8)
Tactical Officer [DotF 6] 6.92 (25)
Bao-Dur [KotOR 2] 6.92 (76)
Squint [KotOR 9] 6.99 (89)
Qyzen Fess [TOR 3] 7.00 (4)
7.0 to 8.0
Jedi Consular [CotF 2] 7.04 (71)
Bastila Shan [CotF 1] 7.13 (107)
Belth Allusis, Jedi Master [Ven 1] 7.16 (19)
Jedi Healer [MotF 2] 7.19 (62)
Old Republic Captain [KotOR 7] 7.20 (70)
Nomi Sunrider, Head of the Jedi Order [Ven 7] 7.20 (15)
Lord Hoth [MotF 5] 7.22 (68)
Covenant Consular [Ven 2] 7.25 (16)
Vanguard [GH 6] 7.29 (7)
Padawan Learner [SnV 3] 7.36 (11)
Gray Jedi [RaR 33] 7.40 (25)
Jedi Seer [DotF 2] 7.43 (28)
Carth Onasi, Old Republic Soldier [RaR 3] 7.44 (27)
Jedi Sentinel [CotF 4] 7.47 (74)
Youngling [JA 18] 7.51 (77)
Jedi Diplomat [RaR 4] 7.54 (24)
Old Republic Trooper [Ven 8] 7.56 (16)
Master Thon [RaR 7] 7.63 (30)
Atton Rand [KotOR 1] 7.65 (102)
Visas Marr [KotOR 10] 7.68 (76)
Vodo-Siosk Baas [JA 4] 7.79 (104)
Wookiee Jedi [RaR 18] 7.80 (20)
Jedi Watchman [DT 1] 7.87 (67)
Elite Gunner [RaR 5] 7.92 (25)
Krynda Draay [GH 1] 8.00 (5)
8.0 to 9.0
Jedi Crusader [JA 2] 8.10 (91)
Covenant Hand [Ven 3] 8.11 (19)
Nomi Sunrider [LotF 1] 8.16 (123)
Kira Carsen [TOR 2] 8.17 (6)
Juggernaut War Droid [KotOR 4] 8.24 (121)
Jedi Instructor [MotF 3] 8.26 (77)
Atton "Jaq" Rand [RaR 2] 8.30 (37)
Master Kavar [RaR 6] 8.31 (29)
Wookiee Elite Warrior [KotOR 11] 8.31 (108)
Old Republic Senator [DotF 3] 8.33 (30)
Aric Jorgan [TOR 1] 8.33 (6)
Antarian Ranger [JA 12] 8.36 (124)
Mical, The Disciple [Ven 6] 8.37 (19)
Mira [KotOR 6] 8.38 (128)
Master Lucien Draay [KotOR 5] 8.41 (128)
Cay Qel-Droma [MotF 1] 8.55 (87)
The Jedi Exile [JA 3] 8.56 (124)
Jedi Battlemaster [JA 1] 8.62 (134)
The Revanchist [DotF 5] 8.63 (41)
Jedi Shadow [Ven 4] 8.69 (16)
Bastila Shan, Jedi Master [DotF 1] 8.70 (56)
Antarian Ranger Captain [GH 12] 8.86 (7)
Master Vandar [Ven 5] 9.00 (26)
9.0 onward
Satele Shan [JvS 2] 9.06 (16)
The Jedi Exile, Hero of Onderon [GH 5] 9.10 (10)
Mirialan Jedi Knight [GH 2] 9.17 (6)
Bao-Dur, Tech Specialist [SnV 1] 9.17 (18)
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I think that I could go through this and try to classify the Old Republic, but I'll have to do it later. It would probably be best if multiple people classified the characters, so that the classifications are as accurate as possible.
And I still say that this stuff would be perfect for that Community Scenario Booklet that was talked about earlier.
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@all, It looks like consensus is being reached on methodologies and learning strategies  I'll continue doing what I can, nudging potential players the way of SWMs... I don't know about yourselves, but when I walk down the street, I don't see crowds of fearsome strangers - oh no, I see potential SWM players everywhere - they just don't know it yet. "Hi! Have you heard the word of STAR WARS MINIATURES today?" I won't quite go to the door to door, every house I see on my constitutional level... Instead, I'm content to continue to play it in my lunchbreaks, with family when I visit, at bookgroups and volunteering sessions, at club meets and occasionally 'exhibition matches' at random prominent public locations/university open days. I think the more steps we can take to show that SWM can be a fun sociable boardgame, which can be portable and played in public, the better And in terms of methodology, I think if we stick to teaching people the game in the consistent, self-same manner in which we learned it (IE, start at Rebel Storm, work progressively (expansion packs at literally the same time intervals that we were exposed to) our way up...) we can ensure that the community, the wonder, and the playstyle will evolve in a similar way to the way we learned it. "Wax on, wax off..." I hope the community spirit is preserved, particularly the customs community which has evolved over the years Will such methods "reinvent the wheel"? Sure... they won't instantly produce meta-bending ultra-competitive players for the top-tier competitive leagues to verse, but the maxims underpinning the approach are "better the devil you know", and "you have to crawl before you can walk, before you can run". It is envisaged that a conservative approach will lead to longevity of the game, and preservation of the desirable qualities of the game. Also, as a personal aside, I will not directly introduce new players to the Vsets, or the joys of making their own customs: sorta the Prime Directive. The rationale is that it might make them curious enough to go out there and innovate, if they don't immediately realize Murphy's Law of Ideas (if you can think it, chances are that somebody else already has, and it's on the internet). All of that, and, as fun as the 'optional' Vsets are, they aren't balanced, WotC 'official' enough for me
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Here is my proposal... Level 1 (No SAs or CEs beyond boosts with very simple conditions; minimal abilities per character): Old Republic Guard Old Republic Recruit Old Republic Soldier Elite Old Republic Soldier Jedi Consular Old Republic Commander Jedi Guardian For the first Level, squadbuilding should also be removed from the equation, so these should be assembled into a squad or two, such as: --OR "Level 1" Training Squad-- 18 Old Republic Commander 16 Jedi Consular 16 Old Republic Soldier x2 (50pts. 4 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/130339/or--level-1--training-squadLevel 2 (Adds the very common abilities such as Diplomat, Mobile Attack, Twin Attack, Accurate Shot, and Stealth. Still restricts the number of abilities per character to a max of about 5. No abilities that require tracking in-game status such as Corruption, Mined, etc., or abilities that involve switching sides.): Old Republic Rookie Youngling Padawan Learner Wookiee Trooper Antarian Ranger Old Republic Senator Jedi Sith Hunter Juggernaut War Droid Jedi Sentinel Jedi Healer Old Republic Jedi Knight Old Republic Captain Tactical Officer Wookiee Elite Warrior Old Republic Trooper Jedi Instructor Jedi Crusader Jedi Shadow Jedi Watchman Admiral Saul Karath Atton Rand Aric Jorgan Carth Onasi, Old Republic Soldier Bao-Dur Carth Onasi Smuggler Level 3 (Only excludes the most complicated pieces. Pieces here require status tracking, switching sides, simply have a bunch of abilities, or something that is particularly complicated - such as Super-Stealth.): Old Republic Scout Old Republic Tech Specialist Covenant Consular Antarian Ranger Captain Squint Bao-Dur, Tech Specialist Elite Gunner Covenant Hand Jedi Battlemaster Jedi Seer Cay Qel-Droma Visas Marr Gray Jedi Jedi Diplomat Mical, the Disciple Atton "Jaq" Rand Satele Shan The Jedi Exile, Hero of Onderon Vanguard Nomi Sunrider The Revanchist Lord Hoth Vodo Siosk Baas Bastila Shan Mira Master Lucien Draay Belth Allusis, Jedi Master Master Thon Master Kavar Level 4 (All in. Characters here have complicated, unique abilities or have very complicated interactions): Krynda Draay Bastila Shan, Jedi Master Kira Carsen Qyzen Fess Wookiee Jedi (Twin + Cleave + Splash + Sweep = quite complicated!) Master Vandar Nomi Sunrider, Head of the Jedi Order Lord Hoth, Leader of the Army of Light Revan, Redeemed
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After going through that exercise, I think the real debate should be here:
Level 1 (No SAs or CEs beyond boosts with very simple conditions; minimal abilities per character)
Level 2 (Adds the very common abilities such as Diplomat, Mobile Attack, Twin Attack, Accurate Shot, and Stealth. Still restricts the number of abilities per character to a max of about 5. No abilities that require tracking in-game status such as Corruption, Mined, etc., or abilities that involve switching sides.)
Level 3 (Only excludes the most complicated pieces. Pieces here require status tracking, switching sides, simply have a bunch of abilities, or something that is particularly complicated - such as Super-Stealth.)
Level 4 (All in. Characters here have complicated, unique abilities or have very complicated interactions)
If we can agree on the criteria for the levels, then slotting the characters can nearly be automated. Then we don't have to have discussions about each individual character. Maybe a few that have common abilities but complicated interactions... Wookiee Jedi was the only one that came to mind for me. I do think 4 levels is sufficient. I'm not sure how you would draw the line for a 5th.
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Based on the basic ideas above, here's a more formal/comprehensive proposal (in progress)...
Level 1: Max 3 SA/FP/CE. Only very simple SA/FP/CE allowed.
These are "free" abilities, so they are not used in counting: Unique, Melee Attack, designations with no effect (e.g. Soldier), Starting Force Points, Force Renewal
Maximum 3 other SA/FP/CE
Only allowed abilities are the following very simple abilities, which contain just attack/damage boosts and the simplest replaces attack abilities. (Even very simple defensive abilities are disallowed to ensure a fast learning game):
???? Hunter (all flavors of Hunter)
Advantageous Attack
Artillerist
Careful Shot
Close-Quarters Fighting
Close-Range Targeting Computer
Cunning Attack
Deadeye
Deceptive
Doctrine of Fear
Double/Triple/Quadruple Attack
Double Claw Attack
Flamethrower
Gregarious
Grenades
Loner
Micro-Vision
Mighty Swing
Missiles
Momentum
Oblivious
Opportunist
Roger Roger
Tactician
Traps
Force Alter
Force Blast
Force Grip
Force Lightning 1
Force Push 1, 2
Force Strike
Force Stun
Lightsaber Assault
Lightsaber Flurry
Lightsaber Sweep
Sith Grip
Sith Lightning
Sith Rage
Level 2: This is the biggest list, so I'm not going to write it out. Everything that isn't dead simple (Level 1) or more complicated (Levels 3 and 4) falls here. Common abilities such as Diplomat, Mobile Attack, Twin Attack, Accurate Shot, and Stealth reside here, along with abilities of similar complexity. Abilities that require status tracking, switching sides, or make frequent appearances in the Rules forum do not appear here.
Maximum 5 SA/FP/CE for a character to be in this level (ignoring Unique, Melee Attack, etc. as above), and cannot have any abilities listed as Level 3 or 4.
Level 3: This is also a large list, so I won't write the whole thing out, but any ability that requires status tracking or allows characters to switch sides goes here. More complex abilities that make frequent appearances in the Rules forum also appear here, such as Super-Stealth, Galloping Attack, Strafe, CEs that grant Momentum, Telepathic Insight, swapping. Characters are also listed here if they have 6 or more abilities beyond the "free abilities": Melee Attack, Unique, Force Renewal, and starting Force.
Level 4 All characters available by the time you reach this level. Only the most complex characters/abilities are held out to this level, so they can be listed individually since there won't be more than 5 or 10 per faction. We may also want to move agreed-upon NPE pieces here. (Of course, reaching "agreement" can be difficult.) Also, all of the Epics go here.
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kobayashimaru wrote: as fun as the 'optional' Vsets are, they aren't balanced, WotC 'official' enough for me I'd like to see some specifics to back that statement up. Truth is, they HAVE brought balance to the game... the proof is in the wide open meta we've been experiencing for the last year or so in tournament play. Have you played in any tournaments where Vsets were played? If not, what experience are you basing this statement on? I have always supported banning pieces when playing in your local group if a piece or pieces take away from the enjoyment of the game. Not everyone plays competitively, and group leaders need to make sure that these people are enjoying the game as much as any tournament players. Local bannings are a LOT different from addressing a national meta.
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Force Renewal shouldn't be in Level 1.
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Darth_Jim wrote:kobayashimaru wrote: as fun as the 'optional' Vsets are, they aren't balanced, WotC 'official' enough for me I'd like to see some specifics to back that statement up. Truth is, they HAVE brought balance to the game... the proof is in the wide open meta we've been experiencing for the last year or so in tournament play. Have you played in any tournaments where Vsets were played? If not, what experience are you basing this statement on? I have always supported banning pieces when playing in your local group if a piece or pieces take away from the enjoyment of the game. Not everyone plays competitively, and group leaders need to make sure that these people are enjoying the game as much as any tournament players. Local bannings are a LOT different from addressing a national meta. I can provide the rationale. As the regulars know, WotC left a game where 100-200 pieces were clearly far superior to the other 600-700 pieces that they made. The Vsets have created another 350 pieces, and 200-250 of those are on the same power level as the top 100-200 pieces that WotC made, with only 100-150 of them being on the lower power level. That means that the top level 'meta' is already populated by more Vset pieces than WotC pieces, even if no WotC pieces have been displaced. Now consider someone who does not have a complete-ish WotC set... but only has 300 or so WotC pieces. Or even just consider someone who intentionally uses the whole collection without trying to create super strong squads - even if they do have a complete-ish collection. For those people, most squads only have a couple of strong pieces - the rest come from the 600-700 low-powered WotC pieces. In that kind of game, Vset pieces do cause an imbalance. Another reason the imbalance is so noticeable... WotC left hardly any high-cost Tier 1 pieces for us. When a Vset Tier 1 piece like Mace comes along... that's 65 points of Tier 1 - one third of a squad just like that. It takes an opposing squad that's nearly all tier 1 to take care of him. Try mixing in many sub-par pieces at all, and he'll start to look unbeatable. Honestly, the Vsets are better balanced than WotC. They are balanced to the top tier of WotC and to one another. It's the bottom tier of WotC (the majority of their pieces) that are unbalanced.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:kobayashimaru wrote: as fun as the 'optional' Vsets are, they aren't balanced, WotC 'official' enough for me I'd like to see some specifics to back that statement up. Truth is, they HAVE brought balance to the game... the proof is in the wide open meta we've been experiencing for the last year or so in tournament play. Have you played in any tournaments where Vsets were played? If not, what experience are you basing this statement on? I have always supported banning pieces when playing in your local group if a piece or pieces take away from the enjoyment of the game. Not everyone plays competitively, and group leaders need to make sure that these people are enjoying the game as much as any tournament players. Local bannings are a LOT different from addressing a national meta. I can provide the rationale. As the regulars know, WotC left a game where 100-200 pieces were clearly far superior to the other 600-700 pieces that they made. The Vsets have created another 350 pieces, and 200-250 of those are on the same power level as the top 100-200 pieces that WotC made, with only 100-150 of them being on the lower power level. That means that the top level 'meta' is already populated by more Vset pieces than WotC pieces, even if no WotC pieces have been displaced. Now consider someone who does not have a complete-ish WotC set... but only has 300 or so WotC pieces. Or even just consider someone who intentionally uses the whole collection without trying to create super strong squads - even if they do have a complete-ish collection. For those people, most squads only have a couple of strong pieces - the rest come from the 600-700 low-powered WotC pieces. In that kind of game, Vset pieces do cause an imbalance. Another reason the imbalance is so noticeable... WotC left hardly any high-cost Tier 1 pieces for us. When a Vset Tier 1 piece like Mace comes along... that's 65 points of Tier 1 - one third of a squad just like that. It takes an opposing squad that's nearly all tier 1 to take care of him. Try mixing in many sub-par pieces at all, and he'll start to look unbeatable. Honestly, the Vsets are better balanced than WotC. They are balanced to the top tier of WotC and to one another. It's the bottom tier of WotC (the majority of their pieces) that are unbalanced. Are we talking non-competitive play now? There is more balance in the competitive game than ever. If we're talking about introducing and teaching people to play the game, I would certainly agree that a majority of Vset pieces should be kept on the shelf for awhile, because of those percentages you just quoted. But that's not what he said.
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Look how fun and diverse the WNY regional results are from the weekend - basically 13 completely different squads with most of the factions represented: Old Republic: Bastila Shan Jedi Master with cheap fringe non-unique bounty hunters Sith: Darth Malgus and Darth Caedus SL Republic: Foul Moudama, Captain Tarpals, Doombot, Jango Fett, Assassin, Zam Wesell, BH Republic: Mon Mothma, Yularen, lots of Naboo Troopers Republic: Skybuck (all WotC) Republic: v-set Mace, GOWK, and HK-47 Separatist: Sev’rance Tann, Zam Wesell, BH, Advanced Spider Droid, Gha Nachkt Imperial: Lord Vader, Thrawn, Admiral Ozzel, Mas Amedda, Morrigan Corde Imperial: Desann, Thrawn, Nightsister Mother, Admiral Gilad Pellaeon, Admiral Ozzel, Mas Amedda, Morrigan Corde New Republic: 100 point Luke Skywalker, Leia Skywalker, Dodonna, Lobot, Jarael New Republic: Seba Sebatyne, HK-47, AD, and 6 Jedi Training Droids Mandalorians: Mandalore the Vindicated, Kelborn, Mando Scouts Mandalorians: Jaster Mereel, Kelborn, Mando Captain, Mando Scout x3 And the top two squads after Swiss were the two most heavily based on WOTC pieces - Skybuck is completely WOTC, and the Lord Vader squad's only non-WOTC piece was Morrigan Corde (powerful, but not in a Mace kind of way). kobayashimaru wrote: as fun as the 'optional' Vsets are, they aren't balanced, WotC 'official' enough for me This is the "balance" that existed after WOTC finished production (someone might have a more accurate list, but this is roughly right); quantity isn't always quality, and New Republic had some amazing pieces in their 31, but some factions clearly got more attention than others: 31 Old Republic pieces 38 Sith 20 Mandos 153 Republic 98 Separatist 127 Rebel 125 Imperial 31 New Republic 15 Yuuzhan Vong Of course, the problem is that the big diversity creates a big learning curve for new players, which is what this thread is trying to address. But the game is very well balanced at the competitive level at the moment - there are way more options than there were where wotc left it.
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Darth_Jim wrote:Are we talking non-competitive play now? There is more balance in the competitive game than ever. If we're talking about introducing and teaching people to play the game, I would certainly agree that a majority of Vset pieces should be kept on the shelf for awhile, because of those percentages you just quoted. But that's not what he said. I assume that anyone bringing a complaint is bringing a complaint about non-competitive play. The diversity in what types of squads win the regionals, and the fact that WotC-focused (and sometimes even PURE WotC) squads compete and sometimes even win... that clearly indicates that there isn't anything in the Vsets that is unbalanced or in need of a ban at the competitive level. (On a side note... this discussion should probably be over in the 'should we ban things' thread. This thread is about a gentler introduction to SWM.)
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Any more thoughts about this?
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Hmm... Not a bad idea. I like some of the ideas posted in the thread a bit better. Personally though, I never had much issue. I read the quick-start guide, then we played like 4 games with mostly older sets (that's all we had), and then after studying on bloomilk awhile to see some more pieces (I couldn't play at the time with anyone, so I entertained my SWM itch in this manner for about a year and a half), embarked on my first custom set, with a bit of help at first. It took a long time (my 1st set), but came out great! At this point, I've played probably 30 games, made several custom sets, built lots of squads (as far as COMPETETIVE squads, I'm trying to make some hoping to get to tourneys, but not quite as good at that as designing customs  , but I can build GOOD squads), and I'm probably a step below tourney level. I think what REALLY helped me get to this point so quickly (being able to comprehend and build around pretty much any piece in the game, if I want to  ) was designing the customs. I learned the abilities, I learned the power levels and good balances and such. And at this point, I really still haven't played A LOT, but I've LEARNED a lot about the game. So much, so fast, really through this website. I will admit though, it took me awhile (part of the way through my first set) to even realize that V-sets existed  , I thought they were just more pieces. Occasionally, I have a bit of trouble with how specific SA's interact with other SA's/rules, but I just ask the community/sithborg , and we never have the problem again. And, sometimes, how specific stuff on the maps play (corners that reach past corners and such) are a bit confusing. I think those are decent trade-offs for how quickly I learned the rest.
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kezzamachine wrote:Let's add this to the thought process - using the infamous BlooMilk ratings!:
Up to 6.0p
Old Republic Recruit [LotF 2] 2.92 (77)
Old Republic Scout [LotF 3] 5.03 (67)
Old Republic Soldier [CotF 6] 5.09 (56)
Old Republic Commander [CotF 5] 5.23 (56)
Carth Onasi [KotOR 3] 5.66 (98)
Old Republic Guard [KotOR 8] 5.72 (68)
Old Republic Tech Specialist [DotF 4] 5.89 (28)
Jedi Sith Hunter [MotF 4] 5.92 (59)
6.0 to 7.0
Wookiee Trooper [KotOR 12] 6.17 (72)
Elite Old Republic Soldier [SnV 2] 6.20 (10)
Old Republic Jedi Knight [JvS 1] 6.25 (8)
Jedi Guardian [CotF 3] 6.64 (59)
Admiral Saul Karath [RaR 1] 6.72 (25)
Smuggler [GH 4] 6.86 (7)
Old Republic Rookie [GH 3] 6.88 (8)
Tactical Officer [DotF 6] 6.92 (25)
Bao-Dur [KotOR 2] 6.92 (76)
Squint [KotOR 9] 6.99 (89)
Qyzen Fess [TOR 3] 7.00 (4)
7.0 to 8.0
Jedi Consular [CotF 2] 7.04 (71)
Bastila Shan [CotF 1] 7.13 (107)
Belth Allusis, Jedi Master [Ven 1] 7.16 (19)
Jedi Healer [MotF 2] 7.19 (62)
Old Republic Captain [KotOR 7] 7.20 (70)
Nomi Sunrider, Head of the Jedi Order [Ven 7] 7.20 (15)
Lord Hoth [MotF 5] 7.22 (68)
Covenant Consular [Ven 2] 7.25 (16)
Vanguard [GH 6] 7.29 (7)
Padawan Learner [SnV 3] 7.36 (11)
Gray Jedi [RaR 33] 7.40 (25)
Jedi Seer [DotF 2] 7.43 (28)
Carth Onasi, Old Republic Soldier [RaR 3] 7.44 (27)
Jedi Sentinel [CotF 4] 7.47 (74)
Youngling [JA 18] 7.51 (77)
Jedi Diplomat [RaR 4] 7.54 (24)
Old Republic Trooper [Ven 8] 7.56 (16)
Master Thon [RaR 7] 7.63 (30)
Atton Rand [KotOR 1] 7.65 (102)
Visas Marr [KotOR 10] 7.68 (76)
Vodo-Siosk Baas [JA 4] 7.79 (104)
Wookiee Jedi [RaR 18] 7.80 (20)
Jedi Watchman [DT 1] 7.87 (67)
Elite Gunner [RaR 5] 7.92 (25)
Krynda Draay [GH 1] 8.00 (5)
8.0 to 9.0
Jedi Crusader [JA 2] 8.10 (91)
Covenant Hand [Ven 3] 8.11 (19)
Nomi Sunrider [LotF 1] 8.16 (123)
Kira Carsen [TOR 2] 8.17 (6)
Juggernaut War Droid [KotOR 4] 8.24 (121)
Jedi Instructor [MotF 3] 8.26 (77)
Atton "Jaq" Rand [RaR 2] 8.30 (37)
Master Kavar [RaR 6] 8.31 (29)
Wookiee Elite Warrior [KotOR 11] 8.31 (108)
Old Republic Senator [DotF 3] 8.33 (30)
Aric Jorgan [TOR 1] 8.33 (6)
Antarian Ranger [JA 12] 8.36 (124)
Mical, The Disciple [Ven 6] 8.37 (19)
Mira [KotOR 6] 8.38 (128)
Master Lucien Draay [KotOR 5] 8.41 (128)
Cay Qel-Droma [MotF 1] 8.55 (87)
The Jedi Exile [JA 3] 8.56 (124)
Jedi Battlemaster [JA 1] 8.62 (134)
The Revanchist [DotF 5] 8.63 (41)
Jedi Shadow [Ven 4] 8.69 (16)
Bastila Shan, Jedi Master [DotF 1] 8.70 (56)
Antarian Ranger Captain [GH 12] 8.86 (7)
Master Vandar [Ven 5] 9.00 (26)
9.0 onward
Satele Shan [JvS 2] 9.06 (16)
The Jedi Exile, Hero of Onderon [GH 5] 9.10 (10)
Mirialan Jedi Knight [GH 2] 9.17 (6)
Bao-Dur, Tech Specialist [SnV 1] 9.17 (18) I think this idea is quite intriguing! May not be perfect (4-Lom, DM and 4-Lom, BH...), but as good an idea as I've seen to categorize the pieces by power level/understanding required..
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