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Round 1: Command of the Galaxy vs Knights of the Old Republic Options
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, December 7, 2015 9:24:38 AM
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Set vs Set tournament

Command of the Galaxy - General_Grievous
vs
Knights of the Old Republic - Mando

Post your squads and explain why you will win. Everyone else - vote publicly for who you think will win. I'll track votes in this top post. (I reserve the right to exclude votes based on suspected sock puppet accounts.)

Voting ends December 11, 2015, 3:00pm EST (New York time).

===
Currently 7-4 to Command of the Galaxy. Though interestingly, if Mando changes his vote to vote for himself, it becomes a tie.
General_Grievous
Posted: Monday, December 7, 2015 4:42:21 PM
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My squad:

Command of the Galaxy + Vehicles of War

--Separatist Movement--
63 Grievous on Tsmeu-6 Wheel Bike
56 Durge on Speeder
35 Asajj Ventress, Nightsister
32 Talon Karrde, Information Broker
13 Todo 360

(199pts. 5 activations)


Mando's:

Its a Ciesta in every single byte!--
23 Captain Panaka
20 Captain Tarpals
36 Gungan Shieldbearer x2
18 Jar Jar Binks
17 T3-M4
77 Gungan Artillerist x7
9 Gungan Soldier

(200pts. 14 activations)


Why I would win:

I pick Rancor Pit and set up shop near gambit but just out of sight. Either I win by that alone or if ANY of the Gungans try to approach. 40 damage strafing from Durge kills everything on Mando's team in one turn and Grievous is just there to finish off the remaining 10 health Tarpals and 20 health Jar Jar. It's a classic case of a not very strong paper team against a beefy scissors team.
ChewbaccaBigfoot
Posted: Monday, December 7, 2015 8:54:01 PM
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I vote Command of the Galaxy. The gungans just don't have the damage output to put any real hurt on Durge or Grievous before they get decimated. Even if Durge could be taken out before a devastating strafe run, Grievous still has damage reduction 10 and galloping attack.
CorellianComedian
Posted: Monday, December 7, 2015 9:36:26 PM
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I want to hear Mando's side of the story (and map choice) before I vote for sure, but it sure seems like almost an auto-loss for the Gungans on Rancor Pen.
Mando
Posted: Wednesday, December 9, 2015 7:32:39 AM
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I'd probably go with Cantina as my map of choice.

I do outactivate by a lot in the matchup. But I don't think it will be enough, so I do have to concede this matchup since I was hoping to not be pitted against a gallop attack/strafe squad in hopes a squad with those components would be eliminated. Grievous and Durge have too much HP to stop both in time to save the whole squad, and Talon could shut down my CE and Assaj could deep strike. Nice squad General_Grievous! two scissors options is really strong and I think it definitely is the weakness of my squad.
General_Grievous
Posted: Wednesday, December 9, 2015 9:38:50 AM
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Thanks Mando, you did do a good job though with your build. Double scissors is a brutal match up though
spryguy1981
Posted: Wednesday, December 9, 2015 9:43:04 AM
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My question is, are Vehicles considered to be non-living because if you can outactivate, swap in a Gungan and then potentially activate the scissors pieces it closes the window some. I still think the beefy strafe wins because it would have to be a failed save fest for it not to. Love me some Gungans and were they paired against something a little less countering they would win a lot of matchups.

Vote goes to Command.
jerjerrod4
Posted: Wednesday, December 9, 2015 3:31:39 PM
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KOTOR just because I hate strafe and gallop, but no, I feel like it's to much for 30HP Gungans to overcome so I have to take CotG here.
CorellianComedian
Posted: Wednesday, December 9, 2015 6:36:27 PM
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Command of the Galaxy. Bummer about the hard matchup, it's hard to see a good squad go down since it's first opponent was a direct counter.

(We should run through the tournament a second time with the same squads but different bracketing, to give the squads that met their counter right away a second chance at being awesome BigGrin)
urbanjedi
Posted: Wednesday, December 9, 2015 10:30:04 PM
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I Actually played this out on Rancor Pen.

Gungans started on the protected gambit side and spread out. Lead with Jar Jar to keep things at bay. Easily got to first turn gambit. Seps did some maneuvering and assajj cloaked up. Rd 2, Durge did the best strafe he could (did 40 to JarJar, killed a shieldbearer, an artilerist and did 60 to panaka and 20 to T3 AND got adjacent to another artilerist). Assajj moved up to gambit (1FP left), Talon did 20 to himself trying to kill Jar Jar, Todo moved up, and Greivous got as ready as he could for a gallop. Gungans killed Durge (and the Gungan he was adjacent to) and hit grevious down to 40 left. Gungans won init and did 10 more to greivous. Greivous did the best gallop he could killing 2 artillerists, the last shieldbearer and the soldier, then Todo went and killed JarJAr (and 20 to assajj) with Self Destruct Sequence. Assaj used her last FP to kill another Artilerist. Gungans finished off Greivous and Talon this round and did 20 to assajj (but no gambit). Seps win init and Assaj goes and finishes off T3, then takes 40 damage from the gungans (Panaka didn't get a shot) and Tarpals got to Gambit and everyone else spread out. Stopped there as with one more round of Gambit the Gungans win and Assajj couldn't stop them all from getting there.

For the Cestas and such I didn't roll the dice, just assumed a 50% hit rate and took damage accordingly.

I think the fact that KOTOR outactivates so badly and especially on a wide open map where there are long shooting lanes favors them. But as with any gungan matchup dice will be the key.

So, I favor KOTOR by the slimmest of margins, because the damage output is really high (7 guys who can do 40) and 3 more who can do it from within 6 and then T3 and Panaka plus the activation advantage is just too much to overcome.

Yes, the gallops and strafes are big, but if the Rep player lets the Sep guy get more than 4 or so guys on a big strafe/gallop then the Rep player should go back and practice spreading out Razz

So IMO, first strafe kills say 4 guys, then durge dies, then gallop kills 3 (shorter range) STILL leaves 3 gungans plus T3 and Panaka. I don't think Talon and Assajj can take care of that quick enough to prevent the Reps from winning on Gambit.

And that is with JarJar not doing much as Seps should take care of him with a strafe and then saccing TODO .

gholli69
Posted: Thursday, December 10, 2015 4:50:20 AM
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I have to agree with urbanjedis assessment here, the huge act. Advantage and not having a rangebon those cestas makes the gungans a tough matchup since they can spread out so much that it is hard to track them all down before they can drop a bunch of damage on you. Also I am not sure, but they may be able to activate the wheelbike with a cesta throw and therefore possibly prevent his gallop. I know they have an activating component to their cesta, just can't remember how its s worded and how it would affect a cyborg piece.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, December 10, 2015 5:59:00 AM
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Actual plays carry a lot of weight with me. I vote Gungans.
General_Grievous
Posted: Thursday, December 10, 2015 6:16:31 AM
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That play report is really odd. If I was playing that squad I would just camp around gambit but out of sight on whatever side of the rocks I started. There should never be a reason to deep strike any Gungans unless the player leaves them all clustered. The point is anyone that approaches gambit gets 70 damage on them AND the strafer can tuck themselves back out of line of sight each time. Durge alone can go out 12 squares, clean sweep gambit then go back out of line of sight. I can't ever see a time that I would go for a big strafe and then sit there and be pummelled. I may play-test this tonight myself and prove that if the Separatist player plays with even a shred of tactics and doesn't just sit in the open that Seps win every single time.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, December 10, 2015 7:22:57 AM
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On Rancor Pit, only one side has protected gambit. If it is your map, the Gungans can pick that side.
General_Grievous
Posted: Thursday, December 10, 2015 9:27:53 AM
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Out of curiousith tried my own sample game. Seps set up on left side and maneuver into position just out of sight. Gungans spread out to stay out of strafe range and send Jar Jar and one Artilleriest in, both sides get gambit. Republic wins initiative and successfully stuns Grievous. Durge kills Gungan and uses movement to move back into cover. Asajj cloaked round 1 and is now with the separatist cluster near gambit. Gungans move another Artilleriest up. Next round Seps win initiative and Grievous moves. Strafes Jar Jar but is forced to attack himself and misses with a 2 but kills Gungan. Durge strafers jar jar and damages himself 20 and jar jar to 40, again both move into cover. Gungans swap in an artillierst and attempt to damage grievous who is in front. Grievous saves both.

Fourth round Durge goes first and purges the Artilleriest and again does 20 to himself and 20 to jar jar. jar Jar attacks and misses. Todo self destruct sequence kills jar jar and panaka swaps in another gungan. This time Grievous fails both saves and takes a total of 20 damage after damage reduction. With Jar Jar gone the cycle continues. Republic can't get more than one Gungan close to gambit. Both sides are able to get gambit each round but Separatist keep whittling away at attackers without stretching to far. Separatist victory and I didn't lose either strafer.

Tried another setting up from the right hand side. First round both players activate extras and move up somewhat closely. Republic player starts spreading characters out more than they already are. Both strafers are based closer but out of sight. 2nd round seps win initiative and activate the three other members first. Republic activates T3, Tarpals, Panaka and soldier. All but the soldier are in the Rancor pen to keep Tarpals safe. Separatists move Talon and Asajj up to meat shield against cestas. Talon makes a lucky shot against an unshield gungan. Gungans retaliate with cestas. Asajj takes 20 damage and force point rerolls her other hit to avoid it. Next phase Grievous and Durge move up just behind Asajj and Talon. With Grievous positioned to strafe north and Durge south. Separatists are out of activations and Republic carnage commences. Asajj shields well making just over half of her saves with the help of the force but goes down finally to the sustained barrage. A lucky angle allows the remaining 3 successful cestas to hit Grievous down to 100 HP. Next round Separatists win initiate and Grievous moves first. He avoids Jar Jar and kills the 2 shield bearers and soldier that had to come within 6 to hit as well as 2 artilieriests hiding to the north. Grievous only needs to not roll a 1 and doesn't. Gungans react by trying to move and cripple Durge. They get lucky and hit 3 out of 4 times. Durge is down to 50 but it's his turn next. With a 24 square range he avoids Jar Jar and kills all but one of the Artileriests are killed needing only a 2 or more. T3 opens door for Panaka to and Tarpals to help but Panaka misses with a 6. Talon takes a shot at Jar Jar but has to target himself and misses. Next round Republic goes first and attacks Grievous with remaining shield bearer to activate him, they unfortunately succeed. Grievous is down to 80 and activated. Durge goes next and kills the last Artilleriest as well as T3 and Wounds Panaka. Panaka takes a shot at grievous and hits to knock him down to 70. Talon shoots at Panaka and misses again.
Next round seps win initiative and Durge moves in to kill Panaka and wound Tarpals. A shot from Grievous seals the deal and all that is left is Jar Jar. Grievous hit him on a strafe to shoot Tarpals and knocked him down to 30. Talon lucks out and manages to score a hit on everyone's most hated gungan and todo kanaka zones to finish him off and end the game with an 80 HP Grievous and 50 HP Durge. Even if I had failed more saves Grievous's damage reduction is huge and using be rest of the team as a meat shield allows my strafers to get close enough to wipe the floor of Gungans. There is just nowhere for them to hide from that range when EITHER strafer can deal enough to kill everything and move out on different paths.
pegolego
Posted: Thursday, December 10, 2015 9:37:35 AM
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Yeah, if both sides play carefully and rolls aren't too crazy, I don't see the Separatist scissors losing this one most of the time.

My vote goes to CotG
juice man
Posted: Thursday, December 10, 2015 10:00:53 AM
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The "meat shield" with force re-rolls decided me CotG. Don't forget Tuna Bikes damage reduction 10. Take a lot of failed Cestas to chip away at him.
CorellianComedian
Posted: Thursday, December 10, 2015 6:57:55 PM
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"Tuna Bike"? Where did that come from?

Command of the Galaxy. As much as I hate voting for strafe (no offense Grievous Smile), I think the massive crowd control wins the day. I'd love to see the match go down in real life, though.
juice man
Posted: Friday, December 11, 2015 4:18:19 AM
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CorellianComedian wrote:
"Tuna Bike"? Where did that come from?
Easer then remembering Tsmeu-6.
urbanjedi
Posted: Friday, December 11, 2015 8:07:48 AM
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ok, I looked at this again with using assajj as the human meat shield and couldn't really do any better.

So Gungans on left again with quite a few in the Upper Left and some in the Rancor pen and a couple on the Lower left. Problem is that you can't get close at all because of the insanely long lines (why is this map still on restricted? Might have to investigate that at some point), so best case is that Assajj runs 18 into the Difficult terrain by the big 2x2 rock and Durge settles in behind to set up as big a strafe as possible with Durge 2 behind that setting up for some gallops. That still has issues as it should take 7 gungans plus panaka (who needs a 6) to kill assajj assuming average rolls and using up her FPs. That leaves 3 gungans plus T3 to work on Grevious which could/should be 80. Now if Reps win init and the seps have bad luck its a dead grevious. We'll skip that scenario as we are assuming average rolls here. Grevious can mow down maybe 5 guys then dies a horrible death which leaves 5 gungans plus Panaka/T3 and JAr Jar to deal with. And is still far enough back that he can't get a great gallop off. Gungans need 13 hits to get through on Durge. In almost full on retreat mode at this point the gungans should be able to stave off death long enough to finish off durge and then either win with gambit or finish off talon.

Either way on Rancor Pit from the left I think the matchup favors gungans maybe 60-40 or so with average dice rolls. Didn't try this on any other map and there are certainly some where gungans lose horribly, but I don't believe Rancor pen is the map.
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