|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 1,441
|
Mordantos wrote:xpraider wrote:... He-Who-Has-Now-Been-Banned... Ooh, I like that nickname  Really, I don't see how a new figure can fix He-Who-Has-Now-Been-Banned without breaking other things. And why spend a spot on a figure to fix He-Who-Has-Now-Been-Banned when that spot can go to a new Kenobi who doesn't have the same problems of He-Who-Has-Now-Been-Banned. I am hopeful that the precendent set by the Elite AT-AT Driver indicates that something similar might happen to He-Who-Has-Now-Been-Banned that would allow the figure to be playable in DCI. I agree, this is a much more highly likely possibility. I would expect a new Kenobi, rather than sitting round waiting for another Errata.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 2/20/2009
Posts: 522
|
I am suprised at the ruling of "you know who" considering that Boba BH is still legal. I had no problem playing against him, and I still don't. In all reality, just about every serious Republic DCI Tournament squad was using "you know who". To stop having the same piece played over and over again, WOTC had to remove him from the picture to get a wider variety of Republic squads to show up.
I think that a new version of Obi-Wan will show up who will be very similar, but more balanced. That's my take on this series of events that has led us up to this point.
Sincerely,
Jester007
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/10/2008
Posts: 184
Location: Middle of an Albertan field
|
That's partially true, Jester. Dean wrote up the DCI changes to free up the entire Meta. GOWK limited to top tables to a few hgate squads. Now, nearly all of JA is playable and much more of the older sets.
|
|
Rank: Droid Starfighter in Walking Mode
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/7/2008
Posts: 48
|
I just hate to see a character like He-Who-Has-Now-Been-Banned go with out a real possibility of coming back. Not only is he in the starter set, he's actually a bit more forgiving than most other figures in terms of play, which is good for helping lower the learning curve a bit for players just getting into the tournament setting. He also epitomizes Obi-Wan and his fighting style with an almost impenetrable defense.
While he is over the top in what he can do, I would hope that those who were railing the hardest for the ban would also be the ones railing the hardest to get him balanced and brought back in the game.
The whole reason I made this thread is to go over him and figure out what sort of change (other figure or errata) would at least take the edge off of him and allow him to be played again.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/12/2009
Posts: 302
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
|
Why did they even change the rules for Soresu Style Mastery? It just made it even more broken 
|
|
Rank: Sith Marauder
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/4/2008
Posts: 899
Location: Farmingdale, NY
|
xpraider wrote:Well, since the debate seems to be over, and GOWK is now out of DCI legal play. What would it take to bring him back? As far as I can tell there are 3 overall options: Change the rules of play so he isn't as powerful, Change GOWK himself to make him more inline, create a new figure(s) that balance him out, or some combination of the three.
Not all of these are practical or even likely. Probably the most likely answer is that a new figure with a new ability comes out which brings him in balance, and this is all speculation. If you want to post an idea, try to post 3 things about an idea: What it is, how it would work against GOWK, and what it would do to the rest of the game. Another important thing to note is the viability of the option.
One thing to really consider is how much of a change is really needed to return him to DCI play. There is a question of whether a true nerf needs to be done, or if something that can take the edge off his effectiveness would do.
I think most of the possible options of changing GOWK himself have probably already been discussed; drop MOTF 2 and Mettle, change Soresu to a 16 save, or drop soresu to LS defense. Each of these will reduce his overall effectiveness to a different degree, and make his defenses easier to get through.
As far as rules changes go, Mettle no longer stacking has been discussed, but it won't change the percentage of his making the save very much. They could make a change that you can't use the force to make more than 1 reroll. There aren't that many characters out there that this would really affect, since any character that could would have to have at least MOTF 2. I think Loda with evade would be the most effected by it. GOWK would still have a very high chance of making his save though, but perhaps add that with removing mettle might make a difference.
In terms of figures, I'm still working that out a bit. But something that can reduce his defense, along with something that has a lot of attacks which could overwhelm his soresu, or a new fringe disruptive. A new crack gunner or a cheap direct damage could also work.
Please provide a link to your source that is bolded...
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/23/2008
Posts: 314
Location: Abingdon, MD
|
billiv15 wrote:
Coming from some people. Certainly not from me. More or better direct damage isn't the answer and will not allow for GOWK to come off the banned list.
Some kind of errata from the Design team at WotC would be required for him to come off the list. Anything less than that is a pipe dream from my perspective.
And considering that they had the floor rules a month and a half before posting them, and watched the regional results carefully before approving the ban, I would say the odds of an errata are also pretty much 0.
I think you all need to face it, odds are GOWK will never be legal.
I think if they would just errata his point cost to between 75-85 points, that would work and get him off the banned list. However, I agree with you Bill and I think the odds are good that he won't be legal again. They had a long time to mull this desicion over and all the options and they chose to ban him. I think it is time to let this topic go.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 1,441
|
kenred2 wrote:
Please provide a link to your source that is bolded...
It's pretty darn simple math that anyone suggesting this change clearly hasn't take 2 minutes to think about. Mettle Stacking Save Fail oOdds: 50%, 17.5%, 2.6% Mettle Not Stacking Save Fail Odds: 50%, 17.5%, 6.1% And since you will ask, like everyone else, no Mettle at all Save Fail Odds: 50%, 25%, 12.5% Even taking away mettle altogether is an issue. Heck, part of the issue is the auto save without force point usage at all, and no way for the opponent to get around it in anyway with attacks.
|
|
Rank: Droid Starfighter in Walking Mode
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/7/2008
Posts: 48
|
If I could remember where it was talked about I would. But if you want to discuss it, that's fine.
Doing the math though, Soresu has a 50% chance of stopping any attack. 7+ (which is after Mettle) is a 70% chance of success. So, of those 50% that fail, 70% will succeed, or 35% of the total chance, or 85% chance of succeeding. With MoTF2, and Mettle not stacking, with that 15% remaining percent, there's a 70% chance of succeeding, or 10.5% of the total chance.
To get the total, it's 50% + 35% +10.5% = 95.5% chance of succeeding on a single hit, if mettle doesn't stack. As I recall, Billiv (I think it was Billiv) posted the math to show that with mettle stacking it's a 98.5% chance of succeeding. If we were to put it in terms of D20 rolls, with MOTF and Mettle, he would succeed on anything other than a 1 with an 11+ save if you do roll a 1, and without Mettle Stacking, it's still anything but a 1.
Without Mettle, it becomes 50% +25% + 12.5% = 87.5% chance of succeeding, or approximately a 3+ on a D20.
Without MOTF 2 it becomes 50% + 35% = 85%, or a 3+ on a D20.
Without Mettle or MOTF 2 it becomes a 50% + 25% = 75%, or a 6+ on a D20, for any single attack.
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 812
Location: Parkville, MD
|
I think we should have a crash course for SWM players in introduction into statistical methods. You guys make it sound like 2nd grade math is all it takes to figure these odds out. Statistics isn't even offered as a course at most high schools, and not everyone takes it at college. Not everyone has been afforded the oppurtunity to learn the same stuff.
Maybe when I get off work tonight I'll do a write up on figuring probabilities of success(or failure) in a given circumstance.
|
|
Rank: Droid Starfighter in Walking Mode
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/7/2008
Posts: 48
|
I'm actually kind of curious about something, and I plan on play testing it when I get the chance. But let's say we have it so that you can't reroll a save with the Force more than once, and we change the CE to just Followers with a Force Rating.
Now, he'd still have about an 85% chance of stopping the first 2 of any attacks, and a 50% chance of stopping those beyond that, but anything that can fire 3 shots has a decent chance at doing damage, and anything with 4 or more shots will pretty much get one or two hits in. And anything that can cause any other sort of save, like Stun will have a higher chance of getting through him. Like say, Jarael with an Ithorian Commander and an R4 targeting GOWK. If she wins initiative, she would need a 4 or better to hit, he'd probably save against the first two attacks, and has a 50/50 save against the damage from the 3rd, unless I'm mistaken he'll still need to save against being activated, and he's likely to fail one of those 3 saves.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/7/2008
Posts: 396
|
Eroschilles wrote:I think we should have a crash course for SWM players in introduction into statistical methods. You guys make it sound like 2nd grade math is all it takes to figure these odds out. Statistics isn't even offered as a course at most high schools, and not everyone takes it at college. Not everyone has been afforded the oppurtunity to learn the same stuff.
Maybe when I get off work tonight I'll do a write up on figuring probabilities of success(or failure) in a given circumstance. Anybody who knows basic fractions with a little bit of algebra should be able to do statistics.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 2/14/2009
Posts: 1,450
Location: At the controls
|
mercenary_moose wrote:Basically, what I'm hearing is that we need a way to get around SSM. More and better Direct Damage pieces would do the job nicely, I think. BTW, I saw this suggestion for an SA to counter He Who Will Remain Unnamed on the WOTC boards and I like it: Superior Disintegration: If this character targets an enemy with Soresu Style Mastery, that piece is automatically Disintegrated Best SA ever!  I believe this may be the SA you are looking for. Disintegration Mastery (Target character named General Obi Wan Kenobi is defeated and the figure must immediately be thrown to the ground and set on fire.)
|
|
Rank: Human Bodyguard
Groups: Member
Joined: 2/16/2009
Posts: 11
|
all the good players tested GOWK and realized he threw off the balance of the game.
HES GONE, get over it. he was way too over powered, boring, Corney, homosexual, racist, ugly and due to popular belief, its been rumored that he had a humongous lighsabor for a white guy.
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 812
Location: Parkville, MD
|
defender390 wrote:Eroschilles wrote:I think we should have a crash course for SWM players in introduction into statistical methods. You guys make it sound like 2nd grade math is all it takes to figure these odds out. Statistics isn't even offered as a course at most high schools, and not everyone takes it at college. Not everyone has been afforded the oppurtunity to learn the same stuff.
Maybe when I get off work tonight I'll do a write up on figuring probabilities of success(or failure) in a given circumstance. Anybody who knows basic fractions with a little bit of algebra should be able to do statistics. True, statistics itself is easy, but to do it properly you need to know the proper formulas or at least the methodology behind it. I'm just to lazy/busy to actually do a basic write-up at the moment.
|
|
Rank: Droid Starfighter in Walking Mode
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/7/2008
Posts: 48
|
Alternate idea from what I posted above. Instead of Followers with a Force Rating, have it be Followers with Order 66.
|
|
Rank: Young Krayt Dragon
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/27/2009
Posts: 50
|
The problem I have with this is simple... GMLS changes the meta in exactly the same fashion. You have GMLS squads, GMLS hate squads, and people who hope not to encounter him.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 2/9/2009
Posts: 936
Location: Southern Illinois
|
The difference is GMLS is 115 pts. That alone will eliminate him from 100 pt DCI and pretty much the 150 as well. Most DCI matches are at the 150 for competition tourneys I have seen.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/4/2008
Posts: 1,441
|
ecs05norway wrote:The problem I have with this is simple... GMLS changes the meta in exactly the same fashion. You have GMLS squads, GMLS hate squads, and people who hope not to encounter him. No it doesn't. This just simply isn't a true statement at all, and it really doesn't apply to any of the three DCI legal formats. I would be happy to discuss this with you more, or play some games on Vassal to show you. I really don't think you have played this out a whole heck of a lot yet, or if you have, there are some mistakes going on in your meta that are affecting your view. Personally, I don't think GMLS is even a great mini at 115pts. I don't think you even saw the most ardent anti-banners making that claim about GOWK.
|
|
Rank: Dark Trooper Phase III
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/1/2008
Posts: 24
|
darth babylon wrote:all the good players tested [He-Who-Has-Now-Been-Banned]. Really? All of them? Were they all in one big room?  And so anyone who didn't test it and/or come to that conclusion is by definition a bad player?  Or maybe a better choice might be "several of the top ranked DCI players" 
|
|
|
Guest |