+3.

RE: TK.

Not really sure why designers would purposely give an easy counter to neuter the core of any competitive all Fringe squad. Especially when it is so easy to pull off with Pellaeon.

Honestly, it doesn't really effect me directly. I'm not personally crying for fringe. I'm actually coming at it from the opposite viewpoint. This is a piece that I was planning on using at GenCon. As in, I have a custom that I brought, ready to swap him in, but never needed to.

It's not just a squad type it badly hurts. It's an entire faction.

Show me an all fringe squad where it doesn't hurt it pretty badly, and you'll also be showing me a squad that can't compete in the meta.

I was prepared to use it. I think it's abusive. I think it has the potential to keep all fringe from being played virtually at all in competitive tournaments. It contributed to it this year.

If I'm alone in thinking this, then it's fine. One less thing to worry about facing.

I would most definitely consider you guys top tier... not sure why that was brought up.... but what I am saying is if a top tier player is concerned it should warrant at least a look and actual discussions, not saying a change HAS to be made, but at least entertained.

anything that does this should be looked at closely.

Agreed, if it's shown that it did that. Didn't really figure into my decision.

As a primary designer on TK-421... oops.

It was intended to be primarily a casual piece that people would find amusing. That mark seems to have been missed, since no one seems amused. During design, there was concern whether it would be playable at all (even casually), given that you give away a piece that is stronger than the one you start with. Messing with Talon squads was intentional (as its only role in a competitive game), but the thought was that getting Luke out of it would be some compensation so it's not the end of the world.

Looking back, I would have designed it differently but I don't think it rises to the point of needing errata for several reasons.
* There hasn't been any complaint from Talon players or players who wanted to play Talon but aren't just because of TK-421. Tim said he wouldn't play Talon, but he probably wouldn't have anyway. Errata should only be used for serious problems. This looks like a minor problem. (ETA: Ha! As I am writing this Naarkon posts his message above to make this bullet no longer true.)
* Most squads have bad match-ups. This seems to just be a bad match-up for a Talon squad. Not even an auto-loss.
* If the Fringe player kills TK-421, the Imperial player is then in the same situation the Fringe player started with. The Fringe player doesn't want to kill gambit-getting TK-421 because it negates the +4/+10 and Ysalamiri. The Imperial player doesn't want to kill gambit-getting Luke Stormie because it would give back the +4/+10 and Ysalamiri.
* For each of the primary Imperial builds, something mitigates TK-421's impact on the Fringe player:
--- For Daala squads, you might as well kill TK-421. You're shooting troopers, so you probably don't need the +4,+10, and you definitely don't need Ysalamiri.
--- For Sidious/Lothal or swap squads (Black & Blue or Tim's GenCon squad), TK-421 has almost no boosts. You can probably ignore him since he isn't boosted and isn't doing serious damage.

Still, based on the number of comments it received it is worth having the balance team discuss it.

Probably true with me, but . . .



(edit - TJ was making the correction as I posted this)




I thought there was a ruling that once a character is on your squad, it is always considered a part of it, even after death. So you'd lose the bonus for good.



Opportunist? Beyond that, the biggest thing is him being a swapper. You almost certainly out-activate as an imperial, so you can trot him up to something important, swap in, attack, win init and swap back. Rinse and repeat.

The cost of Domain Lah Warrior is the most important change that must happen IMO. Domain Lah Warriors should be 14pts.
Squads of only 6-8 warriors already compete at top levels without Blast Bug and don't need such a heavy rock buster.
If Lah warriors cost 14 points players could still build the top vong squads... or maybe even bother trying Vong Unique characters.

We don't need squads of 9+ Warriors with 40HP, VCA7, and Speed 8 all gaining Blast Bug!
Compare the 10pt Domain Shai Warrior to the 15pt Domain Carr Warrior and see that the 10pt Domain Lah Warrior is significantly under cost.

The balance team should also discuss the Warrior Caste Subcommander and Yun-Ne'Shel Priest.
Vong can already be strong against beefy Melee, do they need to be able to bring Warrior Caste (the best rock busting ability in the game) in through reinforcements? The Priest making the Yuuzhan Vong Ossus Protector a bodygaurd with VCA7 with Avoid Defeat (save 7) is ridiculous too.

I welcome any balance team member who wants a better grasp on the concern to contact me for a discussion or game on vassel.

Thanks dudes!

This is, quite frankly, a rules mess.

For the purposes of Unique, defeated characers are still in your squad. You can't bring in another version of the same character with Reserves even if your first one died.

For the purposes of Black Sun, they are still in your squad. You still get Grenades if your Vigo is defeated.

For the purposes of Talon and Specialization, your squad no longer contains them when they're defeated.

Apparently, a defeated piece "is in the same squad" (Black Sun wording) but your squad doesn't "contain" them (Talon's wording on both My Pets from Myrkr and CE). If your head just exploded, I'm on your side. I complained about it when I learned about it. I'll see if I can google up the ruling.

OK - That's good actually. It's not quite as bad as I thought. But I still think it's worth considering.
Might actually do some PTing on this