RegisterDonateLogin

Allergy Alert: May contain Bantha hair.

Welcome Guest Active Topics | Members

Poll Question : How would everyone feel about a Vong with a gun?
Choice Votes Statistics
Yesss!!!! That is what they really need! 1 6.250000 %
Could be cool depending on cost 1 6.250000 %
Totally depends on design 4 25.000000 %
That seems like it could be trouble 7 43.750000 %
Are you frickin' kidding me!?! HECK to the NO!!!! 3 18.750000 %

Vong shooters!?! Options
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:25:58 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
Yuuzhan Vong

Ever polarizing. (well, except for blast bugs - there seems to be a near consensus on those)


Clearly they are virtually all melee and SA based for means of damage. This is one major reason that many feel that they have been so held back (and then launched forward through overcompensation).


So what if we had a Vong shooter? Not talking about this peace brigade outsider crap. I'm talking about a legit YUUZHAN VONG without outsider, having a gun.


We've only ever had one. (And yes, because some jackleg will point out that technically the Yammosk is non-melee, we've had one more. But I mean having an ACTUAL BLASTER in-universe. And Meezhan Kwad can make a non-Vong temporarily Vong, but that was made so restrictive that it is purposefully very hard to use.) Nom Anor came out in set 4, and we have had 25 sets since then (literally? Wow!) without a single legit Vong shooter. Clearly Nom is used for his CE.

So what about a Vong FOLLOWER, without outsider, with a blaster?

Thoughts?
juice man
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:45:24 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/5/2009
Posts: 2,240
Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
Did they have personal, blaster type weapons?
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 9:01:46 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
juice man wrote:
Did they have personal, blaster type weapons?


Some (rarely but it happened) had actual blasters. Nom Anor was one (because he was atheist for most of his story arc), and there were others.

There were also personal blaster like weapons (Yaret-Coral Neonates). They were literally infant versions of the Lava/plasma spitters on Yorik-et Skippers (their living starfighter analogues) created by YV shapers then raised by YV harvesters.

TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 9:43:44 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
Has anyone ever found Nom Anor problematic as an attacker? I have tried to abuse him in the past, but boy is it hard.
donnyrides
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 9:47:18 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/22/2011
Posts: 593
(Yaret-Coral Neonates) could be a really great ability but it would have to have some oversights to who get it. We've talked about this sort of thing a lot and I'm glad you are bringing the question to the community.

I think it could be hard to pull off because the YV up to now have been built to min-max. Any shooter or shooter-like ability that had an attack value would probably be best if it couldn't be increased or twinned. Something like twin blaster wording with added verbage for not available with twin or buffs.

I don't see anything wrong (for instance) with a shaper giving non-uniques higher than 15 points :
Yaret-Coral Neonates - (Replaces turn: Move up to speed and make an attack against an enemy within line of sight at +10 Attack for 10 Damage. Twin Attack may not be used with this ability. Attack and damage values my not be increased.)

+10 attack still gives the threat of killing off turd blockers like uggies but doesn't slow the enemy to a halt while trying to engage. it's not auto damage and it's not based on a save. It can be avoided with evade. The greater than 15 point clause would make for hard spamming and making it non-unique kind of sucks because I like uniques, but Vong Uniques are crazy powerful if you ask me. With the right "shooter" support they would make for hybrid squads of some shooters and some beats like a lot of squads found in other factions.

Now you have to look at what's already there. I would imagine most people would look at it and say, "why would I want to have a shoot ability like this against somebody who is 24 in cover. I have to roll a 14 to hit for 10. May as well just use razor bug and take the 50/50% chance."

So how do you correct it? Give the ability to shoot a higher damage value? 20 starts to get pretty crazy. Give it a higher attack value? Maybe 12 or 13, but then there isn't a use for razor bug anymore.

After thinking about this, I'm starting to wonder if the Vong are just doomed by their own design to be Melee with bugs forever. Any shooter character or ability can be easily outclassed by Razorbug, Blastbug or Spit Poison.

Maybe a single Unique Vong with something that shoots would be cool but I don't think it could be given to the masses with a CE.

/me steps down from soapbox..BigGrin
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 10:11:37 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
donnyrides wrote:

not available with twin or buffs.


This is the main key. Damage specifically should not be able to be boosted. If they had a pea shooter that had a damage cap, all would be fine.



Basing it on their own attack is also key I think. A scrub should have a hard time hitting a jedi in cover. Same as a normal shooter. Using a big unique with high attack to hit something for 10 is fine too.


I think something like this would be perfectly fine (although I would be very careful about giving it out via CE or SA)

Quote:
Yaret-Kor Neonate [Replaces turn: move up to speed and make one attack against an enemy in line of sight, ignoring cover, for exactly 10 Damage. Damage from attacks this turn cannot be increased, nor can it be prevented or redirected. This counts as a nonmelee attack.]


I would keep it to uniques or (even higher priced) non-uniques. Like over 30 cost.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 6:33:49 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/23/2008
Posts: 906
Location: Central Pa
TimmerB123 wrote:
I have tried to abuse him in the past, but boy is it hard.



That just sounds wrong.
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:22:36 PM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 1/30/2009
Posts: 6,457
Location: Southern Illinois
Darth_Jim wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
I have tried to abuse him in the past, but boy is it hard.



That just sounds wrong.


Laugh... Blink

Tim, care to enlighten us? (not about the joke part Wink )

TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2017 7:00:45 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
swinefeld wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
I have tried to abuse him in the past, but boy is it hard.



That just sounds wrong.


Laugh... Blink

Tim, care to enlighten us? (not about the joke part Wink )



You can't have a shaper and give him twin (shaper changes base damage), so it becomes an odd dilemma. He's also super important to your team for his CE (presumably), so it's risky to bring him out for shots against many squads.

He does have a decent attack, and has cunning built in (easy to get regardless - Advance Agent Officer).


So the best I saw back in the day was with scarification (several priest options now) and Czerka for twin (probably ooglith her to make her super stealth), Momentum (Tsavong Lah - very impractical) and Poison (Yomin Carr) Always love a poison gun!

There's some new options to try and boost him more these days than when I tried it last, but it still is difficult.

Now you can add master shaper WITHOUT Shaper (Dovin Basil Keeper), a cannon shot from the Executor, Puppet Master him with Onimi, scar him easily from a YV Seer, Crab Armor 6 from Vergere, wallclimber and extra movement from the YV Consul, Amphistaff from Dooje Brolo, and of course whatever the Yammosk can steal.

Without getting totally ridiculous - I'd say a priest, Czerka, Yomin, Executor, a Yammosk, and the Dovin Basil Keeper, are what you got.

So, when scarred against unactivated targets, that gives you +24 attack for 40 damage +10 Poison, x2 for twin. Then you can do it again with the Executor. All with Force Immunity. ThumbsUp

Of course that all costs 138 points. You can do a heck of a lot better for 138pts.LOL

Probably want to add a Seer to self scar and Lobot to add an optional MTB (gotta get that cunning!) Now you are at 179pts, and barely have room for fodder to make use of his CE.


Then - just because we are insane -

Very soon you'll If you really want to get nutty you can pair him up with the Apostle of the Undying Flame for an extra turn, +2 speed from Warmaster Nas Choka, move and make an additional attack from Commander Sha'kel (although not stacked with the Executor), pseudo accurate vs droids from the Shaper Adept, Evade from the Bith Vigo, and then stack that with GMA from the Twi'go.

Of course you can't get anywhere close to fitting that all in a squad.

Still not practical. But a fun exercise. :)

I won't even touch the Epics.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2017 7:05:28 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
Very interesting. The poll started with very neutral responses, but has started to skew negative.

Either people will be surprised or upset very soon. Flapper
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, April 27, 2017 8:48:36 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, April 28, 2017 10:48:30 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
So does this change anyone's mind?

Quote:
29/30

Viull Gorsat, Wraith Squadron Ace
Yuuzhan Vong
26 pts
Very Rare

HP 70
Def 18
Atk +9
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Unique. Pilot

Affinity [May be in a New Republic squad]

Force Immunity [Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities]

Interference [Non-Unique enemies within 6 squares are not affected by commander effects; Non-Unique enemy commanders within 6 squares have their commander effects suppressed]

Plasma Eel [Replaces attacks: sight; 20 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11]

Shamed One [This character ignores special abilities from Yuuzhan Vong allies that alter his printed Attack or Damage rating]

Shapeshifter [If this character does not have line of sight to an enemy at the end of his turn, he can't be targeted by nonadjacent enemies until the start of his next turn]

"I have Yuuzhan Vong parents who rejected me as my body rejected Yuuzhan Vong implants,
and human parents who raised me. I am of two people."


Recommended Mini - Bossk, Bounty Hunter (BH #21)


Broken? Useless? Interesting? Fun?

Where would you use him?
DarkDracul
Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2017 5:53:55 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/18/2008
Posts: 1,048
Location: Kokomo
Maybe ok because he's actually better in NR. but mostly I like my Vong not being shooters... just like back in the day.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2017 7:24:55 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,407
Having Shamed One keeps him pretty limited.
Naarkon
Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2017 8:02:04 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/30/2014
Posts: 345
Location: Wisconsin
I'm not totally against the idea of the Vong having shooters, but I think it should be done carefully. I would agree with most of the points made so far about keeping the damage down and the cost up at first.

I would ask that it be done thematically however it turns out. Don't just randomly take away melee attack on a unit unless it represents something that makes sense (blaster/new bug/bow&arrow/whatever). An ability functionally similar to Blaster but renamed might take up space on cards but would help to keep things consistent, instead of the Vong being all melee and then melee suddenly vanishing from newer pieces.
TimmerB123
Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2017 8:08:32 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
So the obvious choices are in a Wraith squad or in a Shamed One squad.

Ultimately he's clearly not a power piece, but I do see useful utility.

He can easily gain evade in either faction, and mobile in NR (or GMA with a Twigo in either faction.)


We all know how useful mobile missiles can be (Blizz), and he has a few other tricks up his sleeve.


He has disruptive vs nonuniques which could be very handy. He also has shapeshifter, which can give him very solid protection.

You're not going to get shaper, scarification or master Shaper, but you could get cunning, poison or a cannon shot via CE in Vong.

It might've fun to move to a position with nice LoS (but none currently to an enemy), having shapeshifter kick in. Then if an enemy moves into LoS, you can cannon shot him with the executor, and remain untouchable from your shapeshifter still active because you haven't activated yet.



In a Shamed One squad you can quickly get his attack and defense through the roof.


All in all, our hope is that he ends up a fun piece to play around with
TimmerB123
Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2017 8:09:58 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
Naarkon wrote:
I'm not totally against the idea of the Vong having shooters, but I think it should be done carefully. I would agree with most of the points made so far about keeping the damage down and the cost up at first.

I would ask that it be done thematically however it turns out. Don't just randomly take away melee attack on a unit unless it represents something that makes sense (blaster/new bug/bow&arrow/whatever). An ability functionally similar to Blaster but renamed might take up space on cards but would help to keep things consistent, instead of the Vong being all melee and then melee suddenly vanishing from newer pieces.


Great thoughts on the general concept - what do you think about this piece specifically?
Naarkon
Posted: Saturday, April 29, 2017 8:28:53 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/30/2014
Posts: 345
Location: Wisconsin
TimmerB123 wrote:
Naarkon wrote:
I'm not totally against the idea of the Vong having shooters, but I think it should be done carefully. I would agree with most of the points made so far about keeping the damage down and the cost up at first.

I would ask that it be done thematically however it turns out. Don't just randomly take away melee attack on a unit unless it represents something that makes sense (blaster/new bug/bow&arrow/whatever). An ability functionally similar to Blaster but renamed might take up space on cards but would help to keep things consistent, instead of the Vong being all melee and then melee suddenly vanishing from newer pieces.


Great thoughts on the general concept - what do you think about this piece specifically?


I like him a lot. I don't remember much about the character (read the book, but a long time ago), but he looks pretty nice. Shamed one and shapeshifter are thematic, and interference is cool. All in all, he seems like someone you would run in a Wraith Squadron squad because he has some useful abilities and is subject to their boosts, not someone you would run in all of NR because he brings so much to the table. So power level and thematic-ness he looks really good.

I guess one gripe I have is that he is Yuuzhan Vong at all. Again, I don't remember everything about the character, but from what I remember he is not ashamed of being YV, but is pretty much NR (I mean, he is in Wraith Squadron). I would have preferred to see him NR with a YV SA.
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS

Bloo Milk Theme Created by shinja
Powered by Yet Another Forum.net.
Copyright © 2003-2006 Yet Another Forum.net. All rights reserved.