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No, it's time for reserves and their pieces to end
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9
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33.333333
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Yes, make Wager not affect force powers
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0
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0.000000
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Yes, make Wager not affect special abilities
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0
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0.000000
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Yes, change Wager to 50/50 -/+4 to initiative roll
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4
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14.814814
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Yes, increase cost to 21-31 to take away Lobot
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12
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44.444444
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Yes, ban him entirely, focus on balancing Krell
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2
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7.407407
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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So I think it's pretty obvious I'm not a fan of Unkar. The intent of trying to balance Krell should have been focused on that and not nerfing an entire play-style. Especially by an auto-include in the Lobot price range who cripples a team by non-confrontationly sitting in the back and turning off an entire team, similar to Bastilla except at no cost of force points or chance at all for the other team.
But I also don't want to be that crazy guy holding up a sign and yelling that the end is here just because my favourite way to play the game no longer exists. If I'm alone in this or if this is what the majority wants their game to be, then just tell me and I'll move on.
So this is my last stand on the issue, and I need my brothers on Bloomilk to chime in and either show me support to have Unkar toned down to just insane hard counter or else gently tell me that "Reserves need to end."
So am I crazy and alone in thinking we shouldn't wipe out reserves? Or did this piece just do to reserves what Bastilla did to CE-based squads but much stronger and needs to be corrected? It seems to me like this is the hardest counter ever created to a particular build in the game, and that there wasn't the data or discussion to warrant it.
So, is there no place for Wat, Dooku, Kazdan, Vader, or even the newer Seventh Sister and Voxyn Queen/handler in our game?
Comments are truly appreciated.
Help me Bloomilk, you're my only hope.
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Since I posted this I might as well vote first. I think any of the yes options I posted are realistic and would support them, but if the issue was Krell then he should be the one being balanced. Unkar just does way to much for no risk and he obeseletes dozens of pieces in the game in one swoop.
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Hrm, I meant to vote for option 5 but accidentally clicked option 4. Oops.
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I think it should be changed because there was no data to justify the nerf. And the reserve squad beat out act and smash, so imo it was a great thing to have in the meta.
I put make him above 20 so that he cannot come in with Lobot. That would kind of make him useless and not played, just like yak face.
I think, in reality, the design should go a completely different way.
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All good I'll count that as another for 5 Echo. Any reasoning from anyone?
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My reasoning is that while I think leveraging Lobot to build counters into the game is a good tool, very strong counters like Unkar shouldn't be there. I'd be similarly opposed to a <20 point Fringe piece with Black Ops. If Unkar just made it so, say, all Reserves pieces cost 2 more points, or were worth double points when killing them, or took 10 Damage when brought into play, or you couldn't bring anything that costs less than 7 points in with it, all of those would be ok options to be Reinforcements. Still pretty strong counters but not back breaking, and they all actually make the game more interesting by forcing the Reserves player to adapt.
It's never fun to be told no. Unkar shouts it at you. I don't think he makes the game any more fun.
I'll also head off the argument about Unkar being a soft vs hard counter by saying that yes, he is technically a soft counter in that he doesn't say something like "All characters lose Reserves" in the same way that Black Ops is a hard counter. But he counters everything that makes Reserves work well, making him an exceptionally strong soft counter, to the point that he might as well have been a hard counter.
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Sound thinking Echo and thank you for sharing
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Please consider playtesting so that pieces you consider broken or unthematic don't slip through.
Number of players registering a concern about Unkar vs Reserves in the playtest forum: 1.
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I'd say to ban him or leave him alone. Like I'll say about most pieces.
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jen'ari wrote:I think it should be changed because there was no data to justify the nerf. And the reserve squad beat out act and smash, so imo it was a great thing to have in the meta.
I put make him above 20 so that he cannot come in with Lobot. That would kind of make him useless and not played, just like yak face.
I think, in reality, the design should go a completely different way.
Lmao, how did it beat out act and smash? By out activating...  Your first goal with reserves is to gain an activation advantage, then you start countering your opponents squad. You think Lobot only gets better with time and reserves don't? Reserves needs to remain tier 2, even if unkar went overboard.
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I haven't seen an uproar like this in a while... And over Unkar Plutt. smh.
I'm on the fence. I do think Reinforcements can be devastating,and need a counter of some sort. BUT, I do think Unkar is over the top, and the fact that he can be brought in with Lobot is crazy. My ideas
1. Ban 27 Lobot
2. Up Unkars cost to 21
3. Do nothing to him and make a counter to counter his counter.
Its crazy to me that you can beat a squad based on what you bring in with Lobot reserves. I've never been a fan of that. So my over the top reaction would be to ban Lobot, and most problems are solved. Including 3 point piece drops, and whatever else you can think of
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FlyingArrow wrote:I'd say to ban him or leave him alone. Like I'll say about most pieces. I do think there is wisdom in this. A banlist is simpler than an errata list. Maybe it should have been 21+ before printing, but now that the ink is dry a ban is more elegant. I generally agree with your hierarchy of what changes should be made.
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atmsalad wrote:Lmao, how did it beat out act and smash? By out activating... Your first goal with reserves is to gain an activation advantage, then you start countering your opponents squad. You think Lobot only gets better with time and reserves don't? Reserves needs to remain tier 2, even if unkar went overboard. does it matter if reserves beats out act and smash by leveling the playing field with activations? or if they just get enough firepower to win outright? I don't think so. It made out act and smash think about what if i come up against reserves? RESERVES IS NOT PROVEN TIER 1. it has one regional win and has been played like 3 times in competitive play at any level. One of the problems is if you say it should be tier 2 people think about it and might do something. If a commoner says it it should stay as is it doesnt hold water. Unless someone else picks up the mantle that others actually care to listen to. I am not just blowing hot air here. Here are some issues I have with the current state of things. Here are some quotes from people. Yes i am using quotes without their permission. "This isn't really what the balance committee is for. It's not for changing design you don't like. Unkar hasn't even come out yet. If he starts to dominate the scene, then maybe the conversation can get started." "Things changed by the balance committee should only be changed if they are throwing off the balance of the competitive game." "Counters are the jurisdiction of design. Design is forward thinking and utilizes new ideas to move the game forward, one aspect of which is combat game imbalance." So, in essence, designers have the ability to make counters. Balance team can only make changes if the balance of the game is wrong. Common players have very little say in designs. they have some say in the balance committee. You see where I m going with this? There was no justification for a counter to reserves. It just happened and we are forced to have it affect the game. It totally shut down a play style people like to use. The balance committe now has t move away from their job to balance the game to become the "moral police" So the question remains. Why was it a good idea and good for the community to shut down reserves? Is it because a few individuals thought it was good and what they wanted? or was it for the good of the game in general? Why do a small group of people get to decide reserves should be tier 2? Once again, I am all for changes when needed or desired by a large amount of people. but it does need to be proven. As part of the balance team now I hope to goodness you understand that part at least.
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jen'ari wrote:So, in essence, designers have the ability to make counters. Balance team can only make changes if the balance of the game is wrong.
Designers design. Balance committee doesn't design - it restores balance. It's in the job title.
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FlyingArrow wrote:jen'ari wrote:So, in essence, designers have the ability to make counters. Balance team can only make changes if the balance of the game is wrong.
Designers design. Balance committee doesn't design - it restores balance. It's in the job title. are you being ignorant on purpose? just sarcastic? or did i not do a good job explaining? So giving you the benefit of the doubt i will try again. Designers can design anything they want. With help of other designers and pt committee. They have the say. Very very powerful stuff. Once it is in the game, if balance is maintained, no one can do anything about it except the balance team. The balance team is only supposed to be called up when there is a huge balance issue. Nerfing Reserves is not a huge balance issue. Therefore, the design will stay if our current system is maintained. The design team gets away with murdering reserves as a playing option. Designers make counters based off of what? Well, I would assume its based off on community desire. But in this case that is simply not true. Who Watches the Watchmen?
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jen'ari wrote:
Who Watches the Watchmen?
The people who do the work of playtesting.
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Come on, where do you think the BT gets our discussions from? Conversations on here... Duh? Lol We don't only talk about issues of a competitively dominant nature... Some BT topics right now haven't recently been touched on bloo
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jen'ari wrote:
There was no justification for a counter to reserves. It just happened and we are forced to have it affect the game. It totally shut down a play style people like to use. The balance committe now has t move away from their job to balance the game to become the "moral police"
So the question remains. Why was it a good idea and good for the community to shut down reserves?
Is it because a few individuals thought it was good and what they wanted? or was it for the good of the game in general?
Why do a small group of people get to decide reserves should be tier 2?
Once again, I am all for changes when needed or desired by a large amount of people. but it does need to be proven.
As part of the balance team now I hope to goodness you understand that part at least.
+1 Designing a new piece is fine and well, but one of this much game-changing power and such a cheap hard counter definitely unbalances the game in that it inherently completely destroyed a way to play. If some designers can look at this and say that it may have gone too far and members of the community can say it definitely went to far then it absolutely warrants being at least tabled by the balance committee. It's not that Unkar is going win tournaments, so from the traditional balance committee standpoint he would never qualify. Instead he's a nuke and a threat that will stop an entire way of play from being used. Same as the types of example hard counters Echo listed. On a 21-30+ version of Unkar, there is more of an option of that he might see play and his very existence decreases the likelihood of super reserve-dependent teams being played competitively (not like they really have been in the decade they have been around) based on the threat that, like Bastilla to CE-dependent teams, you may run into him. Costing as he does now, he won't decrease the likelihood of reserves being played, he eliminates it entirely. An 18 point reinforcements piece shouldn't obsolete an entire aspect of Star Wars Miniatures.
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FlyingArrow wrote:jen'ari wrote:
Who Watches the Watchmen?
The people who do the work of playtesting. oh ya, back to that again. My goodness flyingarrow. I have been a play tester before. I have known many play testers. Sure it has gotten better. but it is still problematic. 3720 to 1? ring any bells? Blast bugs ring any bells? I am not so vain to think that if i had play tested that I would have caught those things, or am I naive enough to think that it would have mattered in any substantial way. Or do I think people think I am valuable enough to let me play test some of the more "heavy play testing required" pieces. Which is fine. PT Committee has the say on that, but lets not pretend playtesting is this 100% cure for designs. I am going to be doing lots of play testing for this set and I hope to make a positive impact in the ways that I can. Let's just go back in time and see all the things that Play testers missed and that future designers had to fix or the balance committee had to nerf Poggle Klat Assassins Avoid Defeat in Vong Vehicles Daala Reserves Blast Bugs 3720 to 1 (ouch) Mace Windu Commando Droids Neo Crusader Naboo Double Swap there are others but it is clear that Design needs a strong filter system through people with actual authority to do so. TN used to be great play testers. Than when play testing did not really work, the great Divide... Now we are back and instantly involved in everything. We left during the "Dark Ages". after set 6. We love the game and made our own version always looking for a time and place to come back. The game is fun right now. Designers should not mess with it too much until problems are proven. Truth is that the game now is moving toward what TN has been saying all this time. But a mix of pride and secret agendas keeps the game from getting to the place it should be. It is time for things to finally be put in order so that we can all move forward as one community. Throwing it your face, but I have been right for years. You guys are just catching up ;) Maybe you should just go ahead and listen now and save us two years time. atmsalad wrote:Come on, where do you think the BT gets our discussions from? Conversations on here... Duh? Lol We don't only talk about issues of a competitively dominant nature... Some BT topics right now haven't recently been touched on bloo duh? you just said reserves should be tier 2. and I quote "Reserves needs to remain tier 2" so it is clear you are bias and pushing your own agenda. Great... balance committee member pushing his own perspective and play desires instead of thinking about the community at large or if there is justification behind it. We need some very trustworthy people from different play groups to head a committee that ensures that designs (especially designs that serve as counters) are just, fair, and needed.
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So you want people to make decisions and not be biased one way or another? Your naive, everyone is biased, but you can look past that to find a balance. Hence why I said(since apparently half assing quotes is cool) "even if unkar went overboard".
I can both think reserves need to be tier 2 for a more balanced game and think unkar went overboard... Put away your pitch fork and torch
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