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Black Sun SA is the problem, IMO, of course. Options
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 9:18:25 AM
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So there has been some talk about the Togorian Black Sun Vigo being an extreme NPE and possibly Broken. I believe the fix may be simpler than that. While looking at McNizzle's Squad

--Noob Tube--
34 Nom Anor
24 Togorian Black Sun Vigo
23 Nautolan Black Sun Vigo
11 Givin Black Sun Slicer
108 Gran Raider x27

(200pts. 31 activations)

Which is BRILLIANT, btw, the Togorian isn't really the issue here as much as the Black Sun SA given out by the Nautolan BSV

Black Sun

Card Text

If a character whose name contains Xizor or Vigo is in the same squad, this character gains Grenades 10

Glossary Text

If it is in the same squad as a character whose name contains Vigo or Xizor, this character gains the Grenades 10 special ability. The character retains this bonus ability even if the other character is not currently in play (defeated, delayed entry to the battle map, and so on).

Characters whose names contain Black Sun also count as Black Sun for purposes of effects but do not gain the other benefits of the Black Sun ability.


What if, we simply changed the Glossary and card text to say "If a Unique character whose name contains Xizor or Vigo is in the same squad, this character gains Grenades 10?

That would mean you would have to add at least 30pts to this squad, reducing the Acts by at least 7 to get this particular desired effect. Yes I know, we currently don't have any Unique BSV characters, but that opens some ideas up for designers and puts the cost check in so this can't or wont happen again. Also, maybe put a within 6 range on Grenade Launcher. Just my 2 Cents.

Above all else, please keep the discussions civil and on Topic. I will ask swinefeld to lock the post if someone starts attacking designers, squads, or other players, even passive-aggressively. Thank You
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 9:54:37 AM
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How many Black Sun Thugs could you get instead?
swinefeld
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 10:26:51 AM
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Caedus wrote:
Yes I know, we currently don't have any Unique BSV characters


Alexi Garyn
Ziro the Hutt
Guri, Black Sun Enforcer

Black Sun Vigo SA (counts as name contains)
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 10:28:09 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
Caedus wrote:
Yes I know, we currently don't have any Unique BSV characters


Alexi Garyn
Ziro the Hutt
Guri, Black Sun Enforcer

Black Sun Vigo SA (counts as name contains)


I stand corrected. We have 3 and you would add at least 25 points and take away 7 acts Xizors 30 pt addition would take away 8 acts. Thank you swinefeld for the correction.

jak
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 11:07:53 AM
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while play testing we brought the "problem" that could arise with the togorian BSV in a squad, we were of course ignored.
shmi15
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 11:29:01 AM
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[quote=jak]while play testing we brought the "problem" that could arise with the togorian BSV in a squad, we were of course ignored[quote=jak]


Yea, I actually remember when it came out it was brought up and I heard it wasn't competitve. Competitive and NPE are different, and NPE's are worse than something thats just competitive. I vote for a change immediately to this. No reason at all to allow this to go on. Its ridiculous. 4 point Gran Raiders launching Grenades 12 squares for 30 damage, and SS? I don't understand how this should ebem be a discussion. Just get this changed to something.
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 2:16:18 PM
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There is just so many things that are currently being played that could deal with this squad. DoS with Mira eats this squad. Bastila takes the boom away. I think Jangalore fairs well as does a Resistance squad. Don't get me wrong, it is a tad ridiculous, but I like the concept. I don't know if it should be "Poggle Stomped", but something should definitely change with it. I gave my example of change. I'm not in favor of pendulum swing changes, but "altering the deal" just might work.
shmi15
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 2:47:41 PM
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Caedus wrote:
There is just so many things that are currently being played that could deal with this squad. DoS with Mira eats this squad. Bastila takes the boom away. I think Jangalore fairs well as does a Resistance squad. Don't get me wrong, it is a tad ridiculous, but I like the concept. I don't know if it should be "Poggle Stomped", but something should definitely change with it. I gave my example of change. I'm not in favor of pendulum swing changes, but "altering the deal" just might work.



Bastilla answer, Just wait her out, and once her FP are gone you have them trapped.

Not sure how Mira eats this squad up? Would love to hear that.

Jangalore fairs well? Jangalore can't shoot any of them unless he is adjacent, in which case he blows up. So how does he fair against them?

It does not matter if there are things in the game that CAN beat it. The fact that this is possible is ridiculous. And about as Anti Melee as you can possibly be. It needs to change. Its needs a pendulum change. Because it SHOULD NOT EXIST. There is ZERO way this is designers intent. And if it is, then we seriously need to reconsider what is going on behind closed doors.



I can not see any one person having fun playing against this squad. Is that what we really want here?
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 2:48:27 PM
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Darth_Frenchy wrote:
How many Black Sun Thugs could you get instead?


You would have 18 Thugs instead of 27 Raiders
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 3:04:39 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
Caedus wrote:
There is just so many things that are currently being played that could deal with this squad. DoS with Mira eats this squad. Bastila takes the boom away. I think Jangalore fairs well as does a Resistance squad. Don't get me wrong, it is a tad ridiculous, but I like the concept. I don't know if it should be "Poggle Stomped", but something should definitely change with it. I gave my example of change. I'm not in favor of pendulum swing changes, but "altering the deal" just might work.



Bastilla answer, Just wait her out, and once her FP are gone you have them trapped.

Not sure how Mira eats this squad up? Would love to hear that.

Jangalore fairs well? Jangalore can't shoot any of them unless he is adjacent, in which case he blows up. So how does he fair against them?

It does not matter if there are things in the game that CAN beat it. The fact that this is possible is ridiculous. And about as Anti Melee as you can possibly be. It needs to change. Its needs a pendulum change. Because it SHOULD NOT EXIST. There is ZERO way this is designers intent. And if it is, then we seriously need to reconsider what is going on behind closed doors.



I can not see any one person having fun playing against this squad. Is that what we really want here?


Sorry on Jangalore, forgot he only has accurate.

Mira shuts down stealth. When run in a proper Durge squad 2 rounds of strafe and this squad is toast.

As far as being ridiculous, we agree. As far as needing changes, agree. Changed because it isn't designer intent? A Ford Fusion used as a weapon is probably not the designers intent, but sometimes things happen. Just have to find a way to punish (aka counter) the offender (aka player)
shmi15
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 3:39:43 PM
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I just don't see the need in this game for a swarm of 3-8point pieces being more competitve than rock squads.

9 + points, and I can start seeing more of a reason, but I myself, would not be comfortable unless the swarms cost more than gambit.

To me, and I could be a loner here, but Having pieces that cost less than gambit, who can be competitve, and its actually less rewarding to kill one, than it is to collect gambit, is not good for the game.

I get that Force Sense, or whatever it is, takes care of them. But should we now start adding Force Sense to every squad we have just to make sure we counter these guys?

OR Cheapest piece 17 Points Covenant Defender

The next playable one is 28 points.

Sith have ZERO

Mandos- Bardin Jusik, 36 points

Depa Bilabba - 29 points

Seps - ZERO

Rebel -Princess Leia is 14.... But I would say Chirrut is the most competitive, 22

Imps - Imperial Sov Protector - 25 points

NR Leia, 16 points, but many more worth their cost ( definitely most effective faction )

Vong - ZERO

And last Fringe, which everyone has, 28 points. Well worth the cost tho.

No reason for this to be something poeple have to prep for, and spend 1/8 of their squad to make Mirra work in it. While I do agree, she is well worth the cost, If were going to force people to run something against it, you may as well make a 5 point Fringe with 2 Fp and Force Sense, that way they can use the rest of the points to build their squad.

Because lets face it, if you are not running bastilla or running some one with Force Sense, you lose majority of the time.
CorellianComedian
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 5:13:18 PM
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Okay, if something is changed, I would be 100% in favor of Caedus's suggestion. Simply requiring a Unique Vigo or Xizor would be perfect. If something has to be changed, I wholeheartedly prefer pushing them back a little instead of just shutting them down altogether.

I remember playing against this squad in the Rebels vs. Seps campaign a while ago. They were really annoying to deal with, but I definitely had a sub-par squad (a weird Wookiee build), and it was still a close game (although I can't offer comment on whether or not the Grenade build was optimized).

Anyways, I like the Unique requirement. I think that would take them down just enough that they aren't full-on NPE.
shmi15
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 5:23:46 PM
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I vote someone play it that way, and see how it works. Don't use Super Stealth or bastilla, as everyone agrees those will work. Melee squads take the biggest hit.

I still don't like 18 pieces being able to grenades 30 12 squares out, who only cost 4 points. Easier to deal with, still ridiculous to face.
CorellianComedian
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 5:33:47 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
I still don't like 18 pieces being able to grenades 30 12 squares out, who only cost 4 points. Easier to deal with, still ridiculous to face.


Certainly can't fault you there.

I realized why the grenades squad wasn't as much of a problem when I played it: no Nom Anor. Super-Stealth Self-Destruct really brings it to a new level.

I'm not sure how exactly this plays out on usual tourney maps, but the weird things is that the 'nades can't really take gambit. They can absolutely nuke anything that tries for it, but they can't get gambit themselves, and have 0 staying power once you get within striking distance. Self-Destruct is the problem there (thanks Nom Sneaky).

How much luck have people had in deep-striking or just out-maneuvering? When you go with Gran Raiders instead of Klat Black Sun Thugs, you don't have door control, so it's a lot more cumbersome trying to navigate the map. If you can engage them in small groups, you have a much better chance.
gholli69
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 7:26:50 PM
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One big reason I tweaked my GenCon squad to include Mira was for this squad, and super stealth dalaa trooper builds that I thought I might potentially face as well as the fact that I also had limited door control options and she helped with that as well as being a great secondary attacker. The Grenades aren't really that big IMO since you should make the save half of the time and these guys have zero staying power. Super stealth and self destruct though makes it a really potent cocktail and I wouldn't mind if there were a way to make it so that there were a few less of them to deal with however that may be accomplished, though Caedus' idea seems pretty reasonable.
shmi15
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 7:42:07 PM
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gholli69 wrote:
One big reason I tweaked my GenCon squad to include Mira was for this squad, and super stealth dalaa trooper builds that I thought I might potentially face as well as the fact that I also had limited door control options and she helped with that as well as being a great secondary attacker. The Grenades aren't really that big IMO since you should make the save half of the time and these guys have zero staying power. Super stealth and self destruct though makes it a really potent cocktail and I wouldn't mind if there were a way to make it so that there were a few less of them to deal with however that may be accomplished, though Caedus' idea seems pretty reasonable.



With the build as is, 27 Grans, 27 saves, if you make half... 14, fail 13, that 390 damage in a round....

Put it to 18 with the proposed change, and now your making 9 successful, and 9 failed, but thats still 270 damage.... And you don't get the extra Lightsaber D, or Soresu,or evade, or whatever else you have as a defense, except Armor saves.

Just not a fan of this possibility myself.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 7:45:55 PM
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I would not be sad to see the Togorian banned.
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 7:54:11 PM
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I don't like super extreme squads being close to top tier. Squads with close to 30 acts should be in the games past, not our future. I would like to see a limit on spamming non-uniques. Something like that could really curb the power of swarm squads in the future. Getting over 10 of one character is unnecessary in my opinion.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 8:21:19 PM
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10 Grans and 10 Klat Thugs wouldn't make much difference.
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, September 9, 2017 8:50:09 PM
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The idea of swarm squads being in the game is awesome.
its just that the individual swarm piece is too powerful is the problem.

Just look at the numbers for deployed droids in the Battle of geonosis that the separatists lost compared to those of the Republic. 1 million battle droids and like 100000 B2 Battle Droids.
Even if you gave them 500 points to build with vs a republic squad that has 200 to build with... They should still lose haha.

I think swarms should have a place, just not in the competitive realm since they need vastly superior amounts that will offset the "cost mechanism" in our game.


I think the Togorian should be changed as well tbh I feel as if the change should just be they gain grenade launcher and not grenades 30.
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