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Vong Paratrooper Options
urbanjedi
Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 8:00:34 PM
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There are a million rules interactions that are not spelled out or do not work as written. They come up fairly frequently. Often times they are corner cases that could go either way. At the time they come up (usually during a tournament) you have to make a ruling. You use all available resources and make a ruling. Then work after the fact to make sure it was correct (or not) and move forward.

I told you the ruling I would make.

Usually, I make the ruling that ends up being correct. Sometimes I don't.
urbanjedi
Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 8:04:52 PM
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shmi15 wrote:



At which point, between 4/5 would you rule to allow him to set up his ParaTrooper and the ally he chose?


I would rule that he could choose the ally immediately before

Quote:
step 7 In setup order, a player sets up by selecting a setup area and then setting up his miniatures. Abilities for that player that trigger during setup activate. For example, this includes Light Tutor, Dark Master, Light Spirit, and Dark Spirit. The player chooses the order to resolve the abilities. (***)


And then place the character adjacent to the paratrooper while actually placing the minis on the map (ie setting up)
shmi15
Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 8:26:45 PM
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So we both agree on the intent of the piece, but the issue is not intent right now but wording. What I am understanding then is we can use a vague term on a piece, and then make it whatever we want it to do, for any particular moment, because there is no official rule.



I understand what your saying about this coming up at a tournament and not having the resources. I would probably rule the exact same way you would.

But that doesn't mean were right. I'm using facts in Star Wars rules that I was given as my argument right now. Which is impossible to argue against. We can both say we would allow it to happen at this point, but that means... we would have to break the rules in order to make it work...


Which, I assume thats a BC job, because I assumed the BC ruled on card changes, or ability changes. This instance a rewording of a CE. I don't understand how this is a Swinefeld question, because we have the rules in front of us. And we have the CE's wording in front of us. Unless Swinefeld can over rule the rules?
swinefeld
Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 8:58:58 PM
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Ouch. Too much information... will revisit tomorrow.
shmi15
Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 10:10:28 PM
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swinefeld wrote:
Ouch. Too much information... will revisit tomorrow.


Awaiting for the official ruling!
urbanjedi
Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 10:28:57 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
So we both agree on the intent of the piece, but the issue is not intent right now but wording. What I am understanding then is we can use a vague term on a piece, and then make it whatever we want it to do, for any particular moment, because there is no official rule.



I understand what your saying about this coming up at a tournament and not having the resources. I would probably rule the exact same way you would.

But that doesn't mean were right. I'm using facts in Star Wars rules that I was given as my argument right now. Which is impossible to argue against. We can both say we would allow it to happen at this point, but that means... we would have to break the rules in order to make it work...


Which, I assume thats a BC job, because I assumed the BC ruled on card changes, or ability changes. This instance a rewording of a CE. I don't understand how this is a Swinefeld question, because we have the rules in front of us. And we have the CE's wording in front of us. Unless Swinefeld can over rule the rules?


Swinefeld (and the rules committee) handles all the rules questions and interactions. Like if a CE or SA needs to be reworded to work correctly (ie as intended).

The Balance committee makes sure that there isn't something that is too powerful (ie CDO, or Poggle, etc) that is breaking the competitive balance of the game.
urbanjedi
Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 10:31:58 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
Ouch. Too much information... will revisit tomorrow.


Awaiting for the official ruling!


me too!!!
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 6:46:17 AM
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shmi15 wrote:
You can't over rule the rules tho... Flying Arrow sent me a link to the list of rules. The rules clearly state, that abilities that happen "during set up" occur before you place pieces on the map. So how can you allow someone to place a piece on the map adjacent to the Paratrooper, if the Paratrooper isn't on the board to begin with?



Sorry for not providing more context about that link I posted earlier. (This link: http://swmgamers.com/SWM/Rules/PreGame.html )

That is not "official rules". It is, as stated on that page, my own creation of a step-by-step list that attempts to be consistent with all rulings. I put a lot of effort into making it consistent with every ruling I could find, and I do recommend using it. But there is a chance there's a mistake. The "before setup" terminology was not included in those steps anywhere - I'm not sure if I've ever seen that wording before the Paratrooper.

As urbanjedi said, the pre-game abilities do not use consistent terminology. In the step-by-step layout at that link, I broke abilities into 4 main categories:

"during setup, after seeing your opponent's squad" (deferred squadbuilding like Reinforcements)
"during setup, after seeing your opponent's squad" (other abilities - not deferred squadbuilding. Like Telepathic Insight)
"during setup" (other abilities triggering when you place pieces on the map)
"after setup" (triggering after everyone has set up their pieces on the map)

Where does "before setup" fit? One could argue that it is at the very beginning - before Reinforcements even (step 1a). Or simultaneous with Telepathic Insight (step 4). Or a new step immediately before setting up the pieces (step 7a).

The word "setup" has unfortunately been used to mean both "the whole period of time before your roll the first init" and "the period of time when you're initially placing pieces on the map". Frustratingly inconsistent.

I'd probably rule step 4 if at a tournament. But hopefully we'll hear from Dave with an official ruling soon.
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 8:33:25 AM
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I don't have an official answer for this yet.

urbanjedi wrote:
As I stated earlier, it probably should have been worded:

Immediately before placing this character on the map, choose an allied unique vong. When you place this character on the map, place the chosen ally adjacent.


If ^^ is what the designers intended, then a FAQ clarification or wording errata are needed.

As is, the wording suggests that both the Paratrooper and the chosen ally would have to be in the base build, before squads are revealed, so before reinforcements.

I'm not seeing any discussion in the design thread about using the Paratrooper as a reinforcement in this fashion.

Any comments from the designers on this?


I have some pressing work to get done, I'll check back later if I get a chance.
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 9:27:56 AM
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Vset 14 designers are discussing and combing through the conversations not in the design forum.
shmi15
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 9:54:22 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
I don't have an official answer for this yet.

urbanjedi wrote:
As I stated earlier, it probably should have been worded:

Immediately before placing this character on the map, choose an allied unique vong. When you place this character on the map, place the chosen ally adjacent.


If ^^ is what the designers intended, then a FAQ clarification or wording errata are needed.

As is, the wording suggests that both the Paratrooper and the chosen ally would have to be in the base build, before squads are revealed, so before reinforcements.

I'm not seeing any discussion in the design thread about using the Paratrooper as a reinforcement in this fashion.

Any comments from the designers on this?


I have some pressing work to get done, I'll check back later if I get a chance.



This is what I have been saying the whole time. It needs an Errata or a FAQ fix. Because as is, it does not work. And I would love to get more clarity, and maybe a harder ruling on the terms. "Before Set Up", During Set Up, and After Set Up should not be simultaneous. If it all works together at the same time, use 1 term from now on. If they are not meant to be the same thing, then keep using different terms, and set an order to it.


urbanjedi
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:28:18 AM
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shmi15 wrote:
It needs an Errata or a FAQ fix.


So we have been saying the same thing the whole time.

No matter how it is ruled, it needs an errata or FAQ, as there literally isn't a time "before setup"

Reinforcements says "during setup after squads are revealed" which is the earliest we have and we really can't have a time period earlier than that. Because if it is before squads are revealed, I can't choose a character because I haven't revealed them to you yet.

I suppose we could add a new time frame (during setup after squads are revealed but before reinforcements are chosen), but that is still "during setup" and not "before setup"

juice man
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:30:03 AM
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urbanjedi wrote:
shmi15 wrote:
It needs an Errata or a FAQ fix.


So we have been saying the same thing the whole time.

No matter how it is ruled, it needs an errata or FAQ, as there literally isn't a time "before setup"

Reinforcements says "during setup after squads are revealed" which is the earliest we have and we really can't have a time period earlier than that. Because if it is before squads are revealed, I can't choose a character because I haven't revealed them to you yet.

I suppose we could add a new time frame (during setup after squads are revealed but before reinforcements are chosen), but that is still "during setup" and not "before setup"

Sooo, "durfore" set-up?
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:36:25 AM
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urbanjedi wrote:
there literally isn't a time "before setup"


Your base squad is determined before squads are revealed. I'd call that "before" setup.

I'm perfectly happy to avoid that whole thing though. Just wanted to hear what the designers had in mind.
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:37:07 AM
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FYI, just did a search on the SA and FP sheets (which haven't been updated with the newest set) and "Before setup" has literally never been used. Searching for it in CEs here on Bloo only brings up the YV Paratrooper. So there likely isn't a defined way to parse it anywhere (and since revealing squads is "during setup", I don't think there is a logical place to have "before setup" exist).
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 12:55:40 PM
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This should do for now:

Quote:
Q. When exactly is the Yuuzhan Vong Paratrooper's commander effect resolved?
A. The chosen ally is declared immediately before the Paratrooper is placed on the battle grid. Place the Paratrooper, then place the chosen ally adjacent to it.

Q. Can I still use the Paratrooper's commander effect if it is added to the squad via Reinforcements, or later via Reserves or some other effect?
A. Yes.
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 1:23:11 PM
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urbanjedi wrote:

Reinforcements says "during setup after squads are revealed" which is the earliest we have and we really can't have a time period earlier than that. Because if it is before squads are revealed, I can't choose a character because I haven't revealed them to you yet.


Of course there is. Before squads are revealed. Or it could mean immediately after revealing squads but before Reinforcements are chosen. Of course either way that would mean it had to be in the base squad.

I'm only bringing that up to point out the notion that we can't have a time period before "during setup, after squads are revealed" is clearly incorrect. Of course we can.

In a way, the sticking point is - exactly what is "set-up"

It sounds like reinforcements are part of "set-up". Is revealing squads a part of "set-up", or is immediately after that the exact point at which "set-up" starts.

When does "set-up" end? Before the first init clearly, Pellaeon's CE, etc are after "set-up". So is it the moment the second player says "ok, my pieces are all set"? Then "after set-up" begins, and then ends with the roll of the first init?




All that aside - I have poured through all the vset team communication I can find. I don't think there was a specific intent with "before set-up". It should probably have been "during set-up". The lead designer used that terminology in the first post, and we just kept it without thinking twice.

The ruling that Swinefeld made is fine with me. (Which - correct me if I am wrong, but it essentially means that "before set-up" and "during set-up" are actually synonymous?)
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 1:42:25 PM
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timmerb123 wrote:
The ruling that Swinefeld made is fine with me. (Which - correct me if I am wrong, but it essentially means that "before set-up" and "during set-up" are actually synonymous?)


It was not my intention to define "before setup" with that FAQ. The CE wording may well get changed.

However, if the designers don't want it to work the way I have it above, I will edit.

I drew on the precedent that a character with Programmed Target brought via Reserves gets to choose a target. Not an exact match, admittedly.

I don't see any need to add another timing into the pre-round. It's already a mess.
shmi15
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 1:42:46 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:

Reinforcements says "during setup after squads are revealed" which is the earliest we have and we really can't have a time period earlier than that. Because if it is before squads are revealed, I can't choose a character because I haven't revealed them to you yet.


Of course there is. Before squads are revealed. Or it could mean immediately after revealing squads but before Reinforcements are chosen. Of course either way that would mean it had to be in the base squad.

I'm only bringing that up to point out the notion that we can't have a time period before "during setup, after squads are revealed" is clearly incorrect. Of course we can.

In a way, the sticking point is - exactly what is "set-up"

It sounds like reinforcements are part of "set-up". Is revealing squads a part of "set-up", or is immediately after that the exact point at which "set-up" starts.

When does "set-up" end? Before the first init clearly, Pellaeon's CE, etc are after "set-up". So is it the moment the second player says "ok, my pieces are all set"? Then "after set-up" begins, and then ends with the roll of the first init?




All that aside - I have poured through all the vset team communication I can find. I don't think there was a specific intent with "before set-up". It should probably have been "during set-up". The lead designer used that terminology in the first post, and we just kept it without thinking twice.

The ruling that Swinefeld made is fine with me. (Which - correct me if I am wrong, but it essentially means that "before set-up" and "during set-up" are actually synonymous?)




So what are the exact official steps, in order then. A link like FlyinArrow sent earlier is fine, and I will read it, or if someone would just copy and paste it for me so I can read it. Thank you in advance.
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 1:45:25 PM
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swinefeld wrote:
I don't see any need to add another timing into the pre-round. It's already a mess.


+1


Sorry - Our bad to add a never-before-used phrase. We overlooked it and had no specific timing intent (that I can see)
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