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Czerka and Jolt Options
shmi15
Posted: Sunday, May 27, 2018 1:23:32 PM
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So, the card text on Blaster Upgrade says this

Allies within 6 squares with nonmelee attacks that deal exactly 20 Damage gain jolt

It does not say they can not have the Melee attack ability, just that it only works on Non Melee attacks. If I use Lightsaber Throw, which is a non Melee attack, with a Force User who has Melee attack printed on his card, will I get Jolt when I use a ranged attack, that counts as a ranged attack?

Telekinetic Combat also falls under this question.
shmi15
Posted: Sunday, May 27, 2018 4:32:30 PM
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Bump
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, May 27, 2018 8:34:19 PM
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glossary says printed damage of 10/20.

i guess you need to know if twin blaster counts as printed damage or if it is only talking about the "official" stat line.



shmi15
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2018 3:17:38 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
glossary says printed damage of 10/20.

i guess you need to know if twin blaster counts as printed damage or if it is only talking about the "official" stat line.






This isn't the Twin Blaster question. This is the Lightsaber Throw can you jolt a character with it question.

Specifically.... Does Darth Baras, who has Melee, but has the Holocron ability to gain Lightsaber Throw... If he used Lightsaber Throw, would he gain jolt because his base damage is 20... And Lightsaber Throw is a non Melee attack.


The question is does a SA/FP work with the Czerka. Because all the Czerka really says, is it has to be an attack, and it needs to be non Melee.
shmi15
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2018 10:21:26 AM
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Have the rules guys quit Minis now also?
EmporerDragon
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2018 2:04:00 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
Have the rules guys quit Minis now also?


It's been the Memorial day weekend (as well as Graduation weekend in this part of the country), so not a whole lotta time to be on here.

As for the question, no. A character using Blaster or Lightsaber Throw would not be able to benefit from Blaster Rifle Upgrade. The reason for this is because while that particular attack is non-melee, it does not change the fact that the character is not a character with non-melee attacks.

We have precedent with the opposite situation, where the GenoHaradan Assassin cannot benefit from the Ithorian Commander's CE when utilizing Poisoned Blade.
swinefeld
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2018 2:09:15 PM
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I think I have something that I scraped from the WotC forums about LS Throw.
I'll try to find it. It may not change the answer already given, I don't recall the details.
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 10:20:47 AM
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Found it.

Nickname wrote:

Do Lightsaber Throw attacks gain Jolt if the attacker is within 6 of an allied Czerka Scientist?

The question is really how broadly is "counts as nonmelee for abilities like..." going to be interpreted.

Does that mean only defensive abilities on the target, or does that mean abilities in general that interact in some way with nonmelee attacks?

The combining fire ruling doesn't help because that's related to the Melee Attack special ability.

I can see it going either way but for now allow it.



Sadly, I did not copy the date info of the post, but based on the last sentence of the answer, it was sometime before the end of production and was never addressed by Rob, or added to the FAQ.
droidadmiral
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 12:23:29 PM
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lightsaber throw jolt attacks for the win!!
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 12:57:41 PM
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Swinefeld, did you see the discussion on Kelborn at http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/189777/secret-sauce as well?
shmi15
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 1:17:11 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
Swinefeld, did you see the discussion on Kelborn at http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/189777/secret-sauce as well?



So wait, I am still a bit confused......

Does it, or does it not work?
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 1:23:25 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
TheHutts wrote:
Swinefeld, did you see the discussion on Kelborn at http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/189777/secret-sauce as well?



So wait, I am still a bit confused......

Does it, or does it not work?


I wanted to double check, as I always understood that it didn't.
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 2:30:45 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
shmi15 wrote:
TheHutts wrote:
Swinefeld, did you see the discussion on Kelborn at http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/189777/secret-sauce as well?



So wait, I am still a bit confused......

Does it, or does it not work?


I wanted to double check, as I always understood that it didn't.


Thanks. I'll take a look when I get a chance.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 12:56:01 PM
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So did we get a ruling/ confirmation of rules either way for this? I'm still confused, as EmporerDragon said no and swinefeld posted a WOTC ruling that allowed it. Is there a definitive answer?
AceAce
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 1:31:30 PM
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I'd say you could do it on throw only. If you can evade it then...
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 2:31:37 PM
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If you can get Jolt on a LS Throw, I'd say you should also get it on other abilities that provide non melee attacks, like variants of (Twin) Blaster 10/20. Rules don't tend to have double standards for different abilities, right?
swinefeld
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 5:31:16 PM
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I'm working may way through every instance I can find of these types of abilities, as well as related stuff.

Nickname wrote:

Do Lightsaber Throw attacks gain Jolt if the attacker is within 6 of an allied Czerka Scientist?

The question is really how broadly is "counts as nonmelee for abilities like..." going to be interpreted.

Does that mean only defensive abilities on the target, or does that mean abilities in general that interact in some way with nonmelee attacks?

The combining fire ruling doesn't help because that's related to the Melee Attack special ability.

I can see it going either way but for now allow it.



"For now allow it". It's (much) later, and the question remains, so I guess I get to sort it out.

Although I'm not so sure it is directly relevant to the specific question of LS Throw and Jolt, I will note that per the FAQ, "combined fire" restrictions do not consider only the presence of Melee Attack (SA), but include 'melee attacks'. The clarification was in relation to Poisoned Blade. So this Nickname post I quoted predates that FAQ addition. (or he forgot about it)

Outside of combined fire, which its own thing in game mechanics, there is definitely a difference between 'with/without Melee Attack' (SA) and 'with melee/nonmelee' attacks. There has to be.

I'll be back. Thinking on this has raised other questions I need to look into.
swinefeld
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 6:10:07 PM
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A couple tangentially related examples using the Genoharadan Assassin:

Quote:
Ithorian Commander
Followers in your squad with Damage 10 and Melee Attack get +4 Attack and +10 Damage.


Geno does NOT benefit when attacking adjacent because it does not have Melee Attack (SA)

Quote:
Admiral Yularen
Followers without the Melee Attack special ability gain Opportunist.


Geno DOES benefit when attacking adjacent because it does not have Melee Attack (SA)

That hopefully illustrates the difference between having the SA and some ability letting a character make a particular type of attack. (melee/nonmelee)

to be continued...





swinefeld
Posted: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 10:46:56 PM
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Returning to this:

What matters is the type of attack you're using when the other (ie Czerka etc) ability would be used. You can't combine fire on a 'melee' attack, period. That is in the FAQ. General Grievous DAC may have Blaster 20 (replaces attacks, make a nonmelee attack) but he does not get Jolt from Czerka on his normal attacks just because he 'has' a nonmelee attack he could've used instead, but didn't.

If you are reading this and also have read Deri's recent comments in the 2.0 'Reboot' thread in the General forum, I agree with him that attacks with lightsabers should count as melee attacks, (poses issues with Throw etc a la Jar Jar kinda issues, but since that got so much treatment, is probably cleaner than what we have now)

But, Blaster/Throw etc absolutely do not count as melee attacks anywhere under the existing rules docs that I've found since Clone Strike. (Clone Wars rulebook is the current official text, + Nickname's doomsday FAQ/errata, and then various subsequent rulings, mostly v-set related)

There is nothing that says you can't combine fire with Aurra Sing (CS) on a lightsaber sweep. Those attacks are nonmelee, as she doesn't have Melee Attack, and nothing else says otherwise. You can't LS Block them, but you can Deflect. You also can't combine fire on a LS Throw if the character has Melee Attack (which most/all would), but all the other stuff should work.

So unless/until we as a community go forth and commit to a reboot/cleanup of the rules on stuff like this, I heavily lean to yes, you can get Jolt on a LS Throw.

Leaving open for rebuttal (which is always welcome). This is not a recent issue (other than timing of the OP's question).
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