RegisterDonateLogin

Does not speak Bocce.

Welcome Guest Active Topics | Members

Balance Committee Rulings 2020 Options
DarkDracul
Posted: Saturday, February 8, 2020 8:14:47 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/18/2008
Posts: 746
Location: Kokomo
Official Balance Committee Rulings for (2020) competitive tournament play.

Add to Floor Rules:
Decreasing Activations: In order to decrease the number of activations in a phase, a character must have line-of-sight to an enemy and no ally with Reinforcements in their squad.

Glossary Change:
Suppressive Fire: Remove the second sentence, “enemies hit by this character’s attacks cannot benefit from or grant commander effects for the rest of the round.”

We will continue to monitor "Unique Yuuzhan Vong Squads" (Yun-Yammka Devotion) as well as any new concerns throughout the season.
DarthMaim
Posted: Saturday, February 8, 2020 10:16:54 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/27/2008
Posts: 953
Location: Los Angeles, California
Impressive. Most impressive. Great job balance committee. I knew you guys could do it. Thanks for your efforts to help bring balance to our beloved game! ThumbsUp
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, February 8, 2020 11:55:46 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 7,834
Too many rulings, and too complicated.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Saturday, February 8, 2020 12:42:18 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/30/2017
Posts: 545
Second ruling does the job of reducing Morrigan's power, but as someone said in earlier discussions it means you have to change three characters instead of one, and two of those do not need the change. Should have just changed Morrigan by removing one of her major abilities or increasing her cost in my opinion. Also, why does it say glossary change? It looks to me like a card errata as the text quoted is from the card, not the glossary and a glossary change removing the commander effect suppression doesn't change anything if it's still on the card.

First ruling is very interesting. So the character with the activation control is the one that needs to have line of sight? I think that's going to really shake up the meta but I'm not sure if the result will be good or bad, which was why I was against any change to act control before since I thought the game was already in a good place. Ozzel, Dodonna and San are pretty much out of the picture now with their low HP (so this is the perfect opportunity for a Dodonna remake). Quorreal needs LOS as well as his Scout which hurts him. Imps have plenty of squads still competitive without Ozzel, but I don't know if Rebels or NR or Seps will do so well without their act control.
TheHutts
Posted: Saturday, February 8, 2020 6:04:38 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,518
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
First ruling is very interesting. So the character with the activation control is the one that needs to have line of sight? I think that's going to really shake up the meta but I'm not sure if the result will be good or bad, which was why I was against any change to act control before since I thought the game was already in a good place. Ozzel, Dodonna and San are pretty much out of the picture now with their low HP (so this is the perfect opportunity for a Dodonna remake). Quorreal needs LOS as well as his Scout which hurts him. Imps have plenty of squads still competitive without Ozzel, but I don't know if Rebels or NR or Seps will do so well without their act control.


I think Daala and swarms in general will benefit from the change - Daala didn't use activation control anyway most of the time.

I also think we'll see more strafe/gallop because there's be less Lobot and more swarms.

I think Thrawn will stay viable too. Still out-activates most things even without tempo, and won't be limited to one at a time anymore.
General_Grievous
Posted: Saturday, February 8, 2020 10:01:04 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/8/2010
Posts: 3,493
Not sure how I feel about the changes, suppressive was pretty strong I'll give it that, but the activation control seems a bit odd. Also what's up with the no reinforcements? To choose lobot or Act control?
urbanjedi
Posted: Sunday, February 9, 2020 10:53:15 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 1,767
DarkDracul wrote:


Add to Floor Rules:
Decreasing Activations: In order to decrease the number of activations in a phase, a character must have line-of-sight to an enemy and no ally with Reinforcements in their squad.



Is this any character in the squad? Or the character that is reducing the activations (ie Dodonna, San Hill, Ozzel, Krayt, etc)
DarkDracul
Posted: Sunday, February 9, 2020 11:41:43 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/18/2008
Posts: 746
Location: Kokomo
urbanjedi wrote:
DarkDracul wrote:


Add to Floor Rules:
Decreasing Activations: In order to decrease the number of activations in a phase, a character must have line-of-sight to an enemy and no ally with Reinforcements in their squad.



Is this any character in the squad? Or the character that is reducing the activations (ie Dodonna, San Hill, Ozzel, Krayt, etc)


The "activation control" character wanting to reduce activations in a phase must have line-of-sight to an enemy.

I'll ask the word-smiths to help clean that up.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, February 9, 2020 2:29:26 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 3,637
Location: Chicago
gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
I think that's going to really shake up the meta but I'm not sure if the result will be good or bad


Agreed. It basically turns Ozzel into Moff Morlish Veed (2.8 rating). Grand Moff Tarkin is better in every way now.

likewise, Captain Mar Tuuk is now better than San Hill.

NR takes the biggest hit. Rebels have enough great cheap pieces to still compete.



My concerns - activations will go up. Now any faction has the chance to out activate, thereby any faction can (and likely will) simply pack more fodder.

We'll see more Bastila. And she is a major NPE to many. She is DEVASTATING when you outact.

Daala, welcome back. We all know how much she is loved.


I also see possible reverse abuse. Ozzel/San Hill had aa major downside: One activation ALWAYS. You want it to out act, but then you want to shut it off when the fighting really starts. Now you can. They turn more into Dodonna.

That said - I think people will just not play them rather than try to make them work.



We'll see what the new era brings. There will most definitely be new abuse / NPEs to rise to take their place. I just hope it isn't worse.
DarthMaim
Posted: Sunday, February 9, 2020 5:55:11 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/27/2008
Posts: 953
Location: Los Angeles, California
TimmerB123 wrote:
gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
I think that's going to really shake up the meta but I'm not sure if the result will be good or bad


Agreed. It basically turns Ozzel into Moff Morlish Veed (2.8 rating). Grand Moff Tarkin is better in every way now.

likewise, Captain Mar Tuuk is now better than San Hill.

NR takes the biggest hit. Rebels have enough great cheap pieces to still compete.



My concerns - activations will go up. Now any faction has the chance to out activate, thereby any faction can (and likely will) simply pack more fodder.

We'll see more Bastila. And she is a major NPE to many. She is DEVASTATING when you outact.

Daala, welcome back. We all know how much she is loved.


I also see possible reverse abuse. Ozzel/San Hill had aa major downside: One activation ALWAYS. You want it to out act, but then you want to shut it off when the fighting really starts. Now you can. They turn more into Dodonna.

That said - I think people will just not play them rather than try to make them work.



We'll see what the new era brings. There will most definitely be new abuse / NPEs to rise to take their place. I just hope it isn't worse.



1. "Any faction with a chance to out activate" is a fair and balanced outcome!

2. Bastila won 1 GenCon, 9 years ago, so I'm ok with giving her a shot for a change. Plus, there are counters in the game for Bastila, and there are some attractive OR Bastila-less builds now.

3. 2017- 200pt Champ- Imps "Roger Stone of SWM V2" (atmsalad) now known as (Darth_Frenchy). Daala won 3 yrs ago....................where did she go??? Why/when did she leave??? She won even when we had activation control, and even Etienne took advantage, in key matchups, where he needed to out activate ( which again, isn't completely banned-just will be more difficult to pull off now Smile )


Hey look, I'm just happy to see some change. Let's see how this shakes things up, how the community reacts after GenCon 2020, and go from there. This is monumental and here on the West coast, I know that the guys here are happy to see the change. Thank you balance committee for doing the right thing. SWM needed a significant breath of life, a jolt of a sorts, to change this monotony of Ozzel, winning 4 out of the last 5 GenCons! ( Quoting ATMSalad, regarding his Daala championship squad,
"Against most squads that out activated me I would swap needa for ozzel".

Clearly activation control is the OP Commander effect that is key in the Imps dominating our game, year after year, ever since it was introduced!
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2020 8:39:36 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/29/2017
Posts: 216
I do not think activation control was the key to the Imperial victories. Out of the 3 times I played imps at Gencon I only main boarded ozzel once, and that was in the double swap meta. And my quote was in regards to other squads with act control, lol. Out acting is and always will be a top strategy, and every squad has some type of act control. Yobucks act control is yobucks gallop, luke and Leia, IG speeder, etc. The clear difference is bringing more acts or killing your opponents quickly, but the end is always the same. And just because some people dont think about this, doesnt make it any less prevalent.

However I do think act control has been an important piece to the puzzle that is the imperial strength. Even without the reinforcement tag it is a major hit to out act and smash. With the no reinforcement a lot of squads are hit hard, but I think most people would opt to not use them anyway if line of site is a thing. Unless maybe Rebels or NR with evade.

We do run the risk of an out act nuclear arms race, but most other factions arent equipped with the tech to deal with it. Personally I think that Daala, Yobuck and the wonder twins will still rain supreme, if by a much smaller margin.
DarthMaim
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2020 8:55:16 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/27/2008
Posts: 953
Location: Los Angeles, California
Daala= 1 GenCon championship
Yobuck= 0 GenCon championships
Twins= 1 GenCon championship
Throzzle= 3 out of the last 5 GenCon championships

When you take on the the Top dog, there's always going to be someone/something, to take it's place.

Let's embrace some change peops ThumbsUp BlooMilk
Caedus
Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2020 6:01:46 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/20/2015
Posts: 945
DarthMaim wrote:
Daala= 1 GenCon championship
Yobuck= 0 GenCon championships
Twins= 1 GenCon championship
Throzzle= 3 out of the last 5 GenCon championships

When you take on the the Top dog, there's always going to be someone/something, to take it's place.

Let's embrace some change peops ThumbsUp BlooMilk


Not being accusatory, but I think you are missing the point. I believe they are saying is that we're going to find out Thrawn is still good without act control and now we may have just opened Pandora's Box on other busted Squads.
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2020 1:48:48 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,518
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
I don't think high activation squads are created equal.

Factions like OR, Sith, New Republic, and Mandos don't have useful grunts that you would play en masse. Things like Mando Demolitionists and Sith Recruits are great, but playing 15 of them isn't going to help.

On the other hand, Daala can make 5 point Troopers into great pieces, Thrawn can use Rodians as swap fodder and give them opportunist, while I think we could see the rise of Talon Kardde high activation squads since he makes grunts a lot better.

It's almost like the wrong factions were given act control by WOTC - the factions that tend towards high activation anyway. There is always room for the design team to make, for instance, a high hp New Republic piece with act control.
kezzamachine
Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2020 2:23:26 PM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 9/23/2008
Posts: 1,380
Location: Lower the Hutt, New Zealand
Intriguing! Now, for a Moore to break it...
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Tuesday, February 11, 2020 4:33:39 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/29/2017
Posts: 216
Caedus wrote:
Not being accusatory, but I think you are missing the point. I believe they are saying is that we're going to find out Thrawn is still good without act control and now we may have just opened Pandora's Box on other busted Squads.


Exactly!! But hopefully those squads are in the less shiny factions! BigGrin
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, February 13, 2020 6:48:26 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 3,637
Location: Chicago
To be clear - I was FOR a change to act control. Specifically to San/Dodoma/Ozzel.

I just think THIS change was a poor choice. It shows a clear lack of creativity and short-sightedness. It makes obvious some of the biases on the BC.

Ultimately, I think this will basically have the effect of most people not using act control. Instead of trying to find that balance that promotes certain squad types that need it, they hit it with a sledgehammer and throw reinforcements on the pile for good measure.

Let’s talk about LoS required act control. It virtually never gets used. Will it start to get used now? If it does, what squad types does it disadvantage more? MELEE squads, obviously. In our game which inherently advantages shooters, why would we implement a rule that advantages shooters more? It’s easy to safely get LoS vs melee. Not so vs shooters.

So using act control is a risk, and wasted points vs shooters, right? Problem is that both Imperials and Seps have ways to bring in/not bring in Ozzel/San Hill on a case by case basis (Pellaeon/Nute Gunray).

I just think certain members of the BC saw red in their eyes with their hatred of act control (and reinforcements) and didn’t think through the ramifications. They just wanted to kill it.


One suggestion I know was on the table was to be that you can activate 1 in a phase only if it’s a unique. Encourages uniques, discourages swarms. Makes it so some will still play act control, but in less abusive ways. It keeps things like Daala somewhat in check while not killing non-abusive use (unique heavy NR and Rebel squads for example).

It was a golden opportunity to make a positive change, blown.

I know some people are really excited because there IS a change, but I don’t think they see how much better it could have been and the negative ramifications of THIS change.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, February 13, 2020 7:10:49 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 7,834
Rules should be on the cards. If there are abusive things that need fixes that aren't on the cards, those fixes should be rare enough and simple enough that anyone paying attention can just remember them instead of having to look them up.
General_Grievous
Posted: Thursday, February 13, 2020 10:21:09 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/8/2010
Posts: 3,493
Yeah that's my complaint too, really hurts the low activation costly heroes builds (which are usually melee), and is way to complicated, especially the random reserves part. I would have liked:

You may only reduce your activations to 1 if your squad contains only unique characters.

Or

You may only reduce your activations to 1 if your squad contains less than 5 characters.

The reinforcements part I would have just thrown out because there's already enough shots on reserves/reinforcements.
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2020 2:12:43 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/29/2017
Posts: 216
Nobody saw red in their eyes, lol. We just disagree on the best way to fix the issue. LoS for act control is an established metric in the game. Now we dont have 3 exceptions and the playing field is leveled.

Dont really go for that "negative to rock squads thing". You typically will out act them by enough that it doesn't really matter if you have act control or not, if your goal is to out act anyways. Lol

As a Daala player the Unique option gives me advantages. Now I can go 1 at a time with the characters I would want to and 2 at a time with the characters I would want to. Its the best of both worlds with limited down sides. It does appear to be an appetizing change for NR and Rebels, in an attempt to help them keep up with Thrawn and Daala that is. If you like a faction without Act Control you would still be screwed though.

I'm sure opinions will vary greatly, but rest assured nobody was rubbing their sweaty palms together for this one. 😂 We all care about the game and just want the best solution possible.
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS

Bloo Milk Theme Created by shinja
Powered by Yet Another Forum.net.
Copyright © 2003-2006 Yet Another Forum.net. All rights reserved.