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gandalfthegreatestwizard is now gandalfthenzchampion. He won with this squad: --Hutt Space's Lower Lifeforms (NZ Champion 2021)-- 50 Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire 35 Jabba Desilijic Tiure (43-8 Rapport) 35 Black Krrsantan (41-6 Rapport) 28 Mira of Nar Shaddaa 27 Lobot 20 Bib Fortuna, Majordomo 3 Ugnaught Demolitionist Preferred Reinforcements (20pts Lobot + 20pts Jabba): 17 Klatooinian Assassin 3 Mouse Droid 8 Teek 8 R7 4 Salacious Crumb (5-1 Rapport) (198pts. 12 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/228244/hutt-spaces-lower-lifeforms--nz-champion-2021-Jabba/Talzin squads have had some success and are also seen as a major player this season. Here's an example, but there are multiple Jabba/Talzin iterations runnig around out there: --Night of the Hutt-- 43 Jabba Desilijic Tiure 33 Asajj Ventress, Nightsister (35-2 Rapport) 31 Mother Talzin 46 Nightsister Hunter x2 (23-2 Rapport each) 19 Talia, Nightsister Hunter (21-2 Rapport) 17 Ortugg, Gamorrean Leader 4 Loth-cat 4 Prowler 1000 Seeker Droid 3 Mouse Droid Preferred Reinforcements (Jabba 20): 17 Klatooinian Assassin 3 Mouse Droid (200pts. 12 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/219159/night-of-the-huttWhat else do you think can compete at the top level right now? Please post the squad list and a link.
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This squad beat Night of the Hutt twice during fall/winter tournaments. It's surprisingly strong. --Merciless Death-- 37 Bo-Katan Kryze, Death Watch Lieutenant (38-1 Rapport) 37 Tor Vizsla, Death Watch Founder (38-1 Rapport) 29 Pre Vizsla 19 Death Watch Strike Leader (20-1 Rapport) 18 Death Watch Assassin (19-1 Rapport) 10 Death Watch Armorer (11-1 Rapport) 50 Death Watch Saboteur x5 (11-1 Rapport each) Preferred Reinforcements: (B-K Kryze DW Lt) 19 Mandalorian Scout (200pts. 12 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/228453/merciless-deathThe user Mando created it, but the link to his squad isn't working so I re-created it.
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thereisnotry has had a lot of success with low-activation Mandalorian squads. Here's last year's GenCon winner. --Jangalorn - GenCon 2020 Championship Winner-- 58 Mandalore the Vindicated 56 Jango Fett, Mandalore 28 Kelborn 28 Mira of Nar Shaddaa 24 Mandalorian Tactician 6 Mandalorian Demolitionist (200pts. 6 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/176259/jangalorn---gencon-2020-championship-winnerHe has similar MtV/Kelborn squads with Tarre or SpiderMando. The Tarre Vizsla version recently won a regional. Which one works best? I'm sure thereisnotry knows better than anyone else, but I wouldn't rule any of these out. --The Darksaber-- 58 Mandalore the Vindicated 56 Tarre Vizsla 28 Kelborn 28 Mira of Nar Shaddaa 24 Mandalorian Tactician 6 Mandalorian Demolitionist (200pts. 6 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/227825/the-darksaber--Mandalorian Daycare-- 67 The Mandalorian (Din Djarin) and the Child 58 Mandalore the Vindicated 32 Venku Skirata 28 Kelborn 11 Death Watch Saboteur 3 Ugnaught Demolitionist (199pts. 6 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/227795/mandalorian-daycare
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This is an older squad, but I don't think anything has made it obsolete. This is Darth O's version from 2016. I know atmsalad ran a version at 2018 GenCon but didn't find a link to it. The 2018 version (if it's any different from this one), possibly updated with a couple new pieces... I think it's still a top-tier squad template. --Yoda's friends throw their toys-- 51 Yoda on Kybuck 23 Captain Panaka 20 Blizz 20 Captain Tarpals 16 Dr. Evazan, Galactic Criminal 15 Momaw Nadon 11 Clone Trooper with Flamethrower 9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid 8 Mas Amedda 8 R7 Astromech Droid 4 Gran Raider 6 Rodian Brute x2 9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3 (200pts. 16 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/147195/yodas-friends-throw-their-toysThrawn hasn't been knocked down, either. What's the strongest Thrawn squad these days?
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Mando's have to be played with Vindicated.
Meta is set up in 3 pieces:
Vindicated
New Jabba
Thrawn
Yodabuck has been played for years and years and cant beat the best armies.
Everything else is obsolete.
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@jen'ari
There is always the top squads, but there are always the hidden relationships that win.
If both players are equal who wins?
The answer is found not in the mundane, buy on the outliers, for instance, familiarity with the squad and familiarity of the other squad.
I know I have been thinking over how to beat mandos one and over.
There are only so many tricks a squad can pull out.
If you know the power of a squad you can play to limit the abuse you would have taken.
Fresh squads can perform way above their level just because the opponents aren't prepare. This is what makes a tournament so fun and dangerous to bring the already known.
I keep looking for something, hopefully, no one has thought of and keeping my squads private.
What about the idea of playstyle? Does it not play a part?
Aggressive vs nonaggressive?
Chess matches,at the biggest levels, can follow a script for 30 moves. Then, at some point, something happens that changes everything.
This game has the luck factor as well. A squad that has no chance on paper, being played aggressively, with a tiny luck can pull out a victory.
All you might need is one player to miss an attack or land in a certain square and victory is found.
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Udorian84 wrote:@jen'ari
There is always the top squads, but there are always the hidden relationships that win.
If both players are equal who wins?
The answer is found not in the mundane, buy on the outliers, for instance, familiarity with the squad and familiarity of the other squad.
I know I have been thinking over how to beat mandos one and over.
There are only so many tricks a squad can pull out.
If you know the power of a squad you can play to limit the abuse you would have taken.
Fresh squads can perform way above their level just because the opponents aren't prepare. This is what makes a tournament so fun and dangerous to bring the already known.
I keep looking for something, hopefully, no one has thought of and keeping my squads private.
What about the idea of playstyle? Does it not play a part?
Aggressive vs nonaggressive?
Chess matches,at the biggest levels, can follow a script for 30 moves. Then, at some point, something happens that changes everything.
This game has the luck factor as well. A squad that has no chance on paper, being played aggressively, with a tiny luck can pull out a victory.
All you might need is one player to miss an attack or land in a certain square and victory is found. All good points. I can't disagree with anything there. However, in speculating what the meta is, there is no way those can be factored in. It's pretty much a discussion of viable squads. If we're speculating as to who is likely to win, or the kinds of players to watch out for, Udorian's points are paramount. Regarding Thrawn, he has to outactivate. Pretty easy to do against Mandos, but your firepower will be diminished the higher you go in activations. You can outactivate just about anything if you commit to 1 attacker, but then you don't have enough damage output against stuff like the 6 activation Mando squads, or Obikin. Cloaked squads force you to base your enemies, which means if you want to keep your single attacker safe, you have to attack every other round and swap in fodder. Further, with all of those activations, you have to play quickly. Even so, you may just run out of time before you can score a 3pt win. Any mistakes will be magnified, and if you roll a 1 for initiative at a critical time, forget it. People are running squads with varied activations, so you have to go high in activations. There are several characters that mess with you when your attacker changes position, and Jabba could be a pain in the butt. Nope... I won with Thrawn in 2015 but that meta has sailed. No way I'd run him in today's competitive environment. I don't think Thrawn is tier one at all.
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Darth_Jim wrote:
However, in speculating what the meta is, there is no way those can be factored in. It's pretty much a discussion of viable squads.
Gotcha. But what does knowing a meta do for someone preparing for the tournament? Who decides what the best Fringe squad is? Look at this squad that just won the NZ tournament. No one thought of that Black Krrsantan piece as being viable. Most people go to Morrigan, Boba, Mira, Embo, and sometimes Zam. That piece was a little out of the norm. Knowing the meta should not mean much because the random alterations are what is going to make the difference. Researching all the past winners as I have tried to learn the meta so I can counter it. What I have seen is that the meta usually doesn't matter unless it is just way too powerful. Who saw the Han in Carbonite squad coming? What about that Sidious mastermind squad that made the finals? I think this game is more about the unknown than the known. I think my only chance to do well is to play something that is a little different that hasn't really been encountered before. Because if I play the same exact squad as some of you other players, I am just going to lose haha.
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Udorian84 wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:
However, in speculating what the meta is, there is no way those can be factored in. It's pretty much a discussion of viable squads.
But what does knowing a meta do for someone preparing for the tournament? Who decides what the best Fringe squad is? Look at this squad that just won the NZ tournament. No one thought of that Black Krrsantan piece as being viable. Most people go to Morrigan, Boba, Mira, Embo, and sometimes Zam. That piece was a little out of the norm. Knowing the meta should not mean much because the random alterations are what is going to make the difference. Knowing the meta is important but not enough. That's why I think your points are valid, but in a meta discussion they aren't applicable. But you should absolutely look at playstyles and obscure pieces. Black Krrsantan has been a consideration for me ever since I saw Laura brilliantly use him in one of her builds. I took a Desann squad to a top 8 in 2013. Weird stuff happens. You can't predict or defense against everything. You have to look at all the information that you can and make the best decision about your squad. Meta discussions are useful and you need to prepare yourself for powerful popular squads. I don't think anyone is saying that meta discussions are the only discussions to have, or even that the meta is the most important factor for success. What I am saying is that a meta discussion is a separate discussion from discussions about playstyle or players. You will run into people that look at the popular meta squads and run them straight or tweak them. You need to be able to have an answer for whatever they are bringing to the table. Then you have some of us who never run someone else's squad. We're the ones who come up with the weird stuff that can either blow up in our faces or shake up the meta. How do you prepare for that? By knowing the meta and thinking and researching on your own how to counter it. Once you start thinking of counters you'll start thinking of weird interactions and ask yourself "will anyone be bold/stupid enough to use that counter?" Weird stuff is borne out of thinking about meta counters.
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Udorian84 wrote:
If you know the power of a squad you can play to limit the abuse you would have taken.
This is a great thought, and its yours. How do you know the power of a squad unless you know what squads are being played? This thought tells me that you already study meta to create your squads. You say that there's more than studying the meta to success, and I say that you again are correct. However, this is a meta discussion. I think other considerations have to be factored in, but trying to do it in a meta discussion only muddies the waters.
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Darth_Jim wrote:
Knowing the meta is important but not enough. That's why I think your points are valid, but in a meta discussion they aren't applicable. But you should absolutely look at playstyles and obscure pieces. Black Krrsantan has been a consideration for me ever since I saw Laura brilliantly use him in one of her builds. I took a Desann squad to a top 8 in 2013. Weird stuff happens. You can't predict or defense against everything. You have to look at all the information that you can and make the best decision about your squad.
Meta discussions are useful and you need to prepare yourself for powerful popular squads. I don't think anyone is saying that meta discussions are the only discussions to have, or even that the meta is the most important factor for success. What I am saying is that a meta discussion is a separate discussion from discussions about playstyle or players. You will run into people that look at the popular meta squads and run them straight or tweak them. You need to be able to have an answer for whatever they are bringing to the table.
Then you have some of us who never run someone else's squad. We're the ones who come up with the weird stuff that can either blow up in our faces or shake up the meta. How do you prepare for that? By knowing the meta and thinking and researching on your own how to counter it. Once you start thinking of counters you'll start thinking of weird interactions and ask yourself "will anyone be bold/stupid enough to use that counter?" Weird stuff is borne out of thinking about meta counters.
 Maybe I don't have enough experience with the game to get a grasp on the meta. It feels like there are powerful things everywhere.
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Udorian84 wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:
Knowing the meta is important but not enough. That's why I think your points are valid, but in a meta discussion they aren't applicable. But you should absolutely look at playstyles and obscure pieces. Black Krrsantan has been a consideration for me ever since I saw Laura brilliantly use him in one of her builds. I took a Desann squad to a top 8 in 2013. Weird stuff happens. You can't predict or defense against everything. You have to look at all the information that you can and make the best decision about your squad.
Meta discussions are useful and you need to prepare yourself for powerful popular squads. I don't think anyone is saying that meta discussions are the only discussions to have, or even that the meta is the most important factor for success. What I am saying is that a meta discussion is a separate discussion from discussions about playstyle or players. You will run into people that look at the popular meta squads and run them straight or tweak them. You need to be able to have an answer for whatever they are bringing to the table.
Then you have some of us who never run someone else's squad. We're the ones who come up with the weird stuff that can either blow up in our faces or shake up the meta. How do you prepare for that? By knowing the meta and thinking and researching on your own how to counter it. Once you start thinking of counters you'll start thinking of weird interactions and ask yourself "will anyone be bold/stupid enough to use that counter?" Weird stuff is borne out of thinking about meta counters.
Maybe I don't have enough experience with the game to get a grasp on the meta. It feels like there are powerful things everywhere. I can't remember if we've played, but I've talked to people who have played you. You play like you've got a good grasp of the meta. Your thoughts expressed here show you know what you're doing in making squads. Don't get overwhelmed. a lot of people are already counting you as one of the players to account for.
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Udorian84 wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:
However, in speculating what the meta is, there is no way those can be factored in. It's pretty much a discussion of viable squads.
Researching all the past winners as I have tried to learn the meta so I can counter it. What I have seen is that the meta usually doesn't matter unless it is just way too powerful. Who saw the Han in Carbonite squad coming? What about that Sidious mastermind squad that made the finals? I think this game is more about the unknown than the known. I think my only chance to do well is to play something that is a little different that hasn't really been encountered before. Because if I play the same exact squad as some of you other players, I am just going to lose haha. in my experience, if a player knows how to use his squad very well, he can win even if it's not top tier. just because a squad has won a tournament or two doesn't mean its going to have the same power in the hands of everyone. People like thereisnotry, urbanjedi, urbanshmi, Timmerb and FlyingArrow, to name jsut a few, practice with their teams a lot so they know the strengths and weaknesses and can capitalize on them and figure out where pieces need to be. I'd say bring a squad you are comfortable playing and you should do well with it. I think if you have a playstyle you enjoy, go for it! i personally enjoy tank squads so that is what i usually gravitate towards (Army of Light OR squads in particular i've done very well with).
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jen'ari wrote:Mando's have to be played with Vindicated.
Meta is set up in 3 pieces:
Vindicated
New Jabba
Thrawn
Yodabuck has been played for years and years and cant beat the best armies.
Everything else is obsolete. Hmmm... Where did Talzin go? Didn't I say talzin? No matter since jabba just makes talzin that much better. No thrawn this year? Kind of crazy! He would have done very well. But ya, vindicated squads beat Mandalorian, the child squads. Kind of sad people think there is an open meta. Results speak for themselves though. PS. Can people stop talking about yobuck?
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