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Official 2021-2022 Restricted Maplist Options
Caedus
Posted: Thursday, September 23, 2021 8:28:13 PM
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Effetive September 27, 2021 through Gen Con 2022



Desert Marketplace
Asteroid Base
Cloud City
Gangsters Vault
Imperial Garrison
Imperial Checkpoint
Oceanic Facility
Royal Militia HQ






MapList Restricted 2021-22 PDF
edit: images added by thekezzamachine (hope that's okay!)
DarkDracul
Posted: Thursday, September 23, 2021 8:50:55 PM
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TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, September 23, 2021 10:39:40 PM
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Thanks Shawn. I have no idea what some of those maps are, gonna have to go pull them out.
Caedus
Posted: Friday, September 24, 2021 4:16:54 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Thanks Shawn. I have no idea what some of those maps are, gonna have to go pull them out.


2 of them are part of Map Pack 8 (Desert Marketplace and Imperial Checkpoint) They should be released soon.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, September 24, 2021 5:34:05 AM
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All of these except Cloud City come from Adventurer's Atlas/Matt Francella.


Desert Marketplace - Map Pack 8
Asteroid Base - MP 4
Cloud City - WoTC
Gangster's Vault - MP 6
Imperial Garrison - MP 6
Imperial Checkpoint - MP 8
Oceanic Facility - MP 5
Royal Militia HQ - MP 7

TimmerB123
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2021 10:19:45 PM
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I finally got to look at Imperial Garrison (the only one currently on Vassal that is on the restricted list for the first time.)

Wow.

I will reserve final opinion until I've played on it, but let's just say I have grave concerns right out of the gate.

We took off Outlaw City because it had abusable claustrophobic tight spaces and narrow chokepoints . . . for a map that appears to be even worse.

I guess we'll see how it plays
DarkDracul
Posted: Sunday, September 26, 2021 5:55:09 AM
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Tim, lighten up a little and let us have some fun maps.
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 9:39:27 PM
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DarkDracul wrote:
Tim, lighten up a little and let us have some fun maps.


Forgive me, but that map is about as far from fun as you can get.

My fears were confirmed playing on it on Sunday.

Both sides have straight shots to gambit, and turn only one corner, one square over, and you are engaged. Virtually all combat takes place in 2-square wide corridors, and that really cannot be avoided outside of someone playing poorly. Certain squads will definitely be able to abuse it. There was not much strategy to approach, or different avenues to engage.

I really think this one needs to be reconsidered.
thereisnotry
Posted: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 6:04:02 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
DarkDracul wrote:
Tim, lighten up a little and let us have some fun maps.


Forgive me, but that map is about as far from fun as you can get.

My fears were confirmed playing on it on Sunday.

Both sides have straight shots to gambit, and turn only one corner, one square over, and you are engaged. Virtually all combat takes place in 2-square wide corridors, and that really cannot be avoided outside of someone playing poorly. Certain squads will definitely be able to abuse it. There was not much strategy to approach, or different avenues to engage.

I really think this one needs to be reconsidered.
I thought the map was fine. Every time I played on it the other day, it was an interesting game. Sometimes people chose to engage by going around the bottom, and sometimes around the top (sometimes both). I imagine that probably any map can be exploited by a certain squad type. I remember your Bane 'n Blue squad loved the Throne Room map because Arica could target almost everything in your opponent's squad because of the big wide open rooms. Whenever anyone builds a squad they always try to find the best map for it, so it's not surprising that some squads will choose this map.

I chose this map for my NR squad on Sunday because it allowed Luke to threaten my opponents' pieces already in round 1, plus it wasn't difficult for the rest of my squad to catch up so that he wasn't too badly stranded at the start of round 2.

Also, afaik the reason Outlaw City is no longer on restricted map list wasn't because of narrow chokepoints. I'd like to hear from the people who actually made this decision, just to be clear, but I thought it had more to do with the dominance of Rigged Detonators on that map.
Udorian84
Posted: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 7:16:08 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
DarkDracul wrote:
Tim, lighten up a little and let us have some fun maps.


Forgive me, but that map is about as far from fun as you can get.

My fears were confirmed playing on it on Sunday.

Both sides have straight shots to gambit, and turn only one corner, one square over, and you are engaged. Virtually all combat takes place in 2-square wide corridors, and that really cannot be avoided outside of someone playing poorly. Certain squads will definitely be able to abuse it. There was not much strategy to approach, or different avenues to engage.

I really think this one needs to be reconsidered.
I thought the map was fine. Every time I played on it the other day, it was an interesting game. Sometimes people chose to engage by going around the bottom, and sometimes around the top (sometimes both). I imagine that probably any map can be exploited by a certain squad type. I remember your Bane 'n Blue squad loved the Throne Room map because Arica could target almost everything in your opponent's squad because of the big wide open rooms. Whenever anyone builds a squad they always try to find the best map for it, so it's not surprising that some squads will choose this map.

I chose this map for my NR squad on Sunday because it allowed Luke to threaten my opponents' pieces already in round 1, plus it wasn't difficult for the rest of my squad to catch up so that he wasn't too badly stranded at the start of round 2.

Also, afaik the reason Outlaw City is no longer on restricted map list wasn't because of narrow chokepoints. I'd like to hear from the people who actually made this decision, just to be clear, but I thought it had more to do with the dominance of Rigged Detonators on that map.


My two sense about the map is that it makes it easy for all-melee squads to get to Gambit but make it hard for all-Melee to reach where they need to go. I actually think it hurts runners the most and make sit easier for levitation and swap. Running through choke points is hard. But hey! that is fine. Asajj Ventress can't go exactly where she wants..... I am fine with that. Flight, Acrobatic, leap will be very valuable as well. In the late game against Timmer B I thought I had him choked up and if I didn't leave an ugnaught holding a door I thought was useless I might have had it choked up, but he was able to get around my squad and attack me from behind and kill a non-unique.
I think the map will have a learning curve and those that don't know it will be at a HUGE disadvantage (moreso then normal because I do think it is abusable). But i think once it is learned it should be fine. I am happy with change and seeing what it does and who it makes irrelevant on that map. I mean if you try to plug up the hallways with pieces what is stopping someone from playing Furious Assualt/Sniper? Time will tell what counters work and things. I am excited about the map to be honest.
DarkDracul
Posted: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 4:55:34 PM
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There’s no “we.” There’s a Map Overlord and his advisors, a.k.a. "the map committee" who have no voting power.
Outlaw City was not removed (taken off), it just wasn’t chosen again for next season.
The complaints about Outlaw City on bloomilk were concerning Mira. Which the BC has hopefully addressed.
There was never any discussion about Outlaw City being a problem by the Map Committee.
There’s no reason it couldn’t come back at some point if the Overlord chooses.

We shall see how long Imperial Garrison lasts. So far Tim is the only person complaining.
It might be enough for the Overlord to rotate out Imperial Garrison after this year.
Then perhaps we can get one of my favorite maps of all time to make a return . . . Peaceful City!

There’s no perfect map and we're never going to agree.
That’s why rotating maps and putting one person in charge of it is for the best.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 5:37:21 PM
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Posts: 8,211
This list saw no map carried over from last year. I think there are enough good maps now that we don't need to carry maps over from one year to the next.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, September 30, 2021 7:09:33 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
Also, afaik the reason Outlaw City is no longer on restricted map list wasn't because of narrow chokepoints. I'd like to hear from the people who actually made this decision, just to be clear, but I thought it had more to do with the dominance of Rigged Detonators on that map.


Caedus wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Apart from these 2 maps (perhaps others too?) I think she's not nearly so much of a problem.

Those 2 maps are definitely the biggest problems with Mira, and with the change to Rigged Detonators I think Cantina is ok now, but not Outlaw City (IMO).


IMO the biggest problem with this map are the choke points in general. This map getting added was an oversight by me, but too far along to make a correction. this map was a problem well before this year and, like I stated, a complete oversight by myself. Not only heavy disruption, but heavy distraction is king on this map. Kyle Katarn and Jan Ors were a HUGE problem the last time it was on the restricted list and for that reason it will get a huge timeout.


Direct from the overlord himself. I don’t know how it could be much more explicitly stated.

Also why I am being very blunt early on in the process about very similar problems with Imperial Garrison.
Caedus
Posted: Thursday, September 30, 2021 10:22:51 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Also, afaik the reason Outlaw City is no longer on restricted map list wasn't because of narrow chokepoints. I'd like to hear from the people who actually made this decision, just to be clear, but I thought it had more to do with the dominance of Rigged Detonators on that map.


Caedus wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Apart from these 2 maps (perhaps others too?) I think she's not nearly so much of a problem.

Those 2 maps are definitely the biggest problems with Mira, and with the change to Rigged Detonators I think Cantina is ok now, but not Outlaw City (IMO).


IMO the biggest problem with this map are the choke points in general. This map getting added was an oversight by me, but too far along to make a correction. this map was a problem well before this year and, like I stated, a complete oversight by myself. Not only heavy disruption, but heavy distraction is king on this map. Kyle Katarn and Jan Ors were a HUGE problem the last time it was on the restricted list and for that reason it will get a huge timeout.


Direct from the overlord himself. I don’t know how it could be much more explicitly stated.

Also why I am being very blunt early on in the process about very similar problems with Imperial Garrison.


Please don't use my words without context.

The choke points were a problem due to the number of them, 3, in the engagement area, the ability to access all 3 from multiple entry points, the ability to create longer LOS in those choke points, and lastly the ability to affect multiple choke points while being in a heavily protected position.

As per the discussions that were had, this map isnt on the same planet as OC.

The map checks out, for now, and will be reevaluated, just like every other map on this list, should problems arise. I'm not changing a new map, that has 1 tourney in. We have a unique ability, with all the games being played on Vassal, to record them and submit them for judgement, if abuse is suspected.

That is as explicitly as I can state it.

Overlord out.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, September 30, 2021 12:54:53 PM
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Shawn, apologies if there was some misunderstanding, but I don’t understand how that was using your words out of context. Trevor said he thought the main issue with outlaw city was all the low cover and Mira abuse. I brought up that a major issue was chokepoints. I quoted you talking about those choke points. You then spoke more about chokepoints in the post above. In what way is that out of context?

Regardless, I wouldn’t expect you to change the list after one tournament, nor just on my word. But I felt obligated to express clearly (and early) my concern. Then if other voices add concern as well, it can be looked at more closely and carefully considered.

To be clear, none of it was meant as a knock on you personally Shawn. You do great work and we are grateful for all you do.
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, October 1, 2021 11:52:49 AM
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That map is incredibly bad and easily abusable. but that is a good thing. Maps should impact the meta. The worse map on the list is Cloud City.
thereisnotry
Posted: Saturday, October 2, 2021 10:50:23 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
That map is incredibly bad and easily abusable. but that is a good thing. Maps should impact the meta. The worse map on the list is Cloud City.
Why do you think that Cloud City is the worst map on the list? I think it would be, if not for the arrangement that whoever wins the map roll automatically loses side choice. Because of this arrangement, the person who brings this map should be well-prepared to start from the right-side of the map each game because it is so much better to start from the left.
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, October 3, 2021 7:15:44 AM
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advancing up the left side is always hard for a squad with one override and 2 ugnaughts.
The spaces are difficult to get through the doors. If the opponent has Accurate shot and override they can easily kill your door control. Cloud City is one of the hardest door control maps in the game.
You also have LoS across the entire map in 2 directions. both of which are really the only way to advance. you can be shot at the entire time coming up, which means you have to spend a round hiding and not going near as far as you could, or you have to bring extra door control or you need some fantastic movement.
Gambit room is hard to get set up in. Map favors Beatstick shooters. Movement from one side of the Gambit to the other difficult as well. Requires so much off kilter movement to get where you want to be.

I have never had a great battle on Cloud City it practically has "Disruption"

The only thing I can think is that Sith with the Force Nexus might benefit starting in Gambit.
thereisnotry
Posted: Sunday, October 3, 2021 10:48:46 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
advancing up the left side is always hard for a squad with one override and 2 ugnaughts.
The spaces are difficult to get through the doors. If the opponent has Accurate shot and override they can easily kill your door control. Cloud City is one of the hardest door control maps in the game.
You also have LoS across the entire map in 2 directions. both of which are really the only way to advance. you can be shot at the entire time coming up, which means you have to spend a round hiding and not going near as far as you could, or you have to bring extra door control or you need some fantastic movement.
Gambit room is hard to get set up in. Map favors Beatstick shooters. Movement from one side of the Gambit to the other difficult as well. Requires so much off kilter movement to get where you want to be.

I have never had a great battle on Cloud City it practically has "Disruption"

The only thing I can think is that Sith with the Force Nexus might benefit starting in Gambit.
Whenever I start from the left I usually head up into the big room that is to the north of the big long map-wide LOS area. From there it's easy to blow a couple of doors and be fairly safely in gambit with a piece or 2 by the end of round 2. The real challenge is when you're playing from the right side, because you tend to be very exposed when you approach the 2-square doorway headed into gambit. I find that the player on the left usually has an easier time setting up a kill-box in the gambit area, and the player on the right has to devise a creative way to overcome that.
Udorian84
Posted: Sunday, October 3, 2021 11:45:09 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
advancing up the left side is always hard for a squad with one override and 2 ugnaughts.
The spaces are difficult to get through the doors. If the opponent has Accurate shot and override they can easily kill your door control. Cloud City is one of the hardest door control maps in the game.
You also have LoS across the entire map in 2 directions. both of which are really the only way to advance. you can be shot at the entire time coming up, which means you have to spend a round hiding and not going near as far as you could, or you have to bring extra door control or you need some fantastic movement.
Gambit room is hard to get set up in. Map favors Beatstick shooters. Movement from one side of the Gambit to the other difficult as well. Requires so much off kilter movement to get where you want to be.

I have never had a great battle on Cloud City it practically has "Disruption"

The only thing I can think is that Sith with the Force Nexus might benefit starting in Gambit.
Whenever I start from the left I usually head up into the big room that is to the north of the big long map-wide LOS area. From there it's easy to blow a couple of doors and be fairly safely in gambit with a piece or 2 by the end of round 2. The real challenge is when you're playing from the right side, because you tend to be very exposed when you approach the 2-square doorway headed into gambit. I find that the player on the left usually has an easier time setting up a kill-box in the gambit area, and the player on the right has to devise a creative way to overcome that.


Thats what I did when I practiced on it. But it does take a while to get set up. If you are being safe I think the opponent can get to the right of the gambit room pretty easily. The map is hard and simple to use in my opinion, but that is because there is really only 1 or 2 ways to advance if you are playing against good shooters. It is almost as a "who makes a mistake" map. Having your starting position on that map is very important imo. Just like anything if your movement is kind of stale this particular map is going to be hard for you. I agree that something like Battle Ready or Lor San Tekka or Nexus would be super beneficial on this map. I didn't know I would enjoy map changes so much. Not that I didn't like the previous maps, but because it brings so many different things to think about.
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