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Rule Implementation Request *BR and RC please review Options
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, March 4, 2023 1:36:08 PM
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Reserves and Reinforcements

I've always been a fan of the game. While I have struggled with some of the decisions (and non-decisions, for that matter) of the Rules and Balance Committees, I have always understood that things do need to be addressed and sometimes re-addressed in our game.

My feelings about an activation cap are mixed. I get that act control got out of hand and I also understand that high activations are starting to annoy some people more than others, but needs to be addressed. I am of the opinion that activations (IF CAPPED) should be a cap of 16 PLUS any Reinforcements and/or Reserves. A hard cap here, to me, makes no sense as it is a "special feature" of the character to bring in reinforcements and the fact that we have essentially nerfed Reserves out of gameplay (among other archetypes).
In my opinion we are coming dangerously close to "All Special Abilities and Commander Effects are suppressed as they give too much advantage to the player that isn't losing".

My opinion on Reinforcements, is that there should be a hard number associated to what can be brought in. Now whether that is a point value or a set number of characters is debatable. Reserves may need different circumstances due to the Reserve Number.

My thinking to this is when you make your squad, you must "anticipate the meta", and therefore must do the same with your Reinforcements and Reserves. In my opinion, a "sideboard" (sorry, I play MtG so it's what I reference) of 100pts worth of Reserves and/or Reinforcements show be sufficient. The fact that we can currently choose from the entire character lists and hand pick the absolute "Silver Bullet" is a bit much.

Thank you for reading, didn't mean to go all kobyashi on everyone!!BigGrin
DarkDracul
Posted: Saturday, March 4, 2023 6:38:25 PM
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I am for a 16-activation cap that includes abilities like Reinforcements.
Abilities in which you deliberately choose to increase the size of your squad before the start of the game.

However, I think abilities that trigger during the game like; Reserves, Rackghouls, ect. should work as normal.
Those abilities are not guaranteed and are less likely to create a significant advantage.

The Balance Committee is still having our discussion. We may not be able to address all the topics for this year.
There were a lot of things.




gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Saturday, March 4, 2023 6:54:45 PM
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Having an activation cap which doesn't account for Reinforcements would be a problem, because it just compounds the advantage of Reinforcements. Why would you not play Reinforcements when not only do you get to customize your squad after seeing your opponent, but you also are guaranteed to outactivate any player without Reinforcements? I think I would prefer no change at all to an activation cap that gives Reinforcements another innate advantage.
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, March 4, 2023 11:09:38 PM
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
Having an activation cap which doesn't account for Reinforcements would be a problem, because it just compounds the advantage of Reinforcements. Why would you not play Reinforcements when not only do you get to customize your squad after seeing your opponent, but you also are guaranteed to outactivate any player without Reinforcements? I think I would prefer no change at all to an activation cap that gives Reinforcements another innate advantage.


I disagree. Just because you have Reinforcements does not "guarantee" that you out activate someone? That is flat out false. You have a better chance to out activate, but to say you guarantee it does, is simply untrue. Putting a cap that includes Reinforcements makes Wuher at 9pts a ridiculously strong character that would destroy yet another archetype. This game doesn't need another Unkar Plutt, seriously.
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, March 4, 2023 11:13:14 PM
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For Example

--Yun-Yammka Devotion: FAIL SAVES (Gen Con Shaft 7th place)--
30 Shedao Shai
30 Supreme Overlord Quorreal
28 Tsavong Lah, Warrior Elite
27 Nen Yim
22 Dovin Basal Keeper
22 Khalee Lah, Warrior Progeny
19 Eighth Cortex Shaper
15 Yammosk War Coordinator
7 Shamed Intendant

Preferred Reinforcements:
(ECS-CE) 18 Praetorite Vong Priest
(S. O. Quorreal) 13 Yun-Ne'Shel Priest
(S. O. Quorreal) 5 Zonoma Sekot Scout
(S. O. Quorreal) 4 Yuuzhan Vong Worker

(200pts. 13 activations)

Two Sets of Reinforcements

--Running Down a Dream--
43 Cad Bane, Bounty Hunter
35 Asajj Ventress, Nightsister
33 Aurra Sing, Assassin
26 Kel Dor Bounty Hunter x2
10 Defel Pirate
10 San Hill
8 Muun Tactics Broker
8 R7 Astromech Droid
9 Rodian Brute x3
18 Ugnaught Demolitionist x6

(200pts. 18 activations)

No Reinforcements

--Shots--
36 Darth Sidious
24 Commando Droid Captain
75 BX Commando Droid Sniper x5
15 Daultay Dofine
9 Battle Droid Officer
9 Wuher
8 R7 Astromech Droid
6 Buzz Droid
12 Mouse Droid x4
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

(200pts. 18 activations)

Also, No Reinforcements
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, March 4, 2023 11:49:15 PM
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The problem is how many Reinforcements we are allowed to chose from. MTG Standard allows 15 cards for a 60 card format, which is 25%. Set the Reinforcements accordingly 50pts to choose from and/or 4 acts max per game.

To allow 16 acts to include reinforcements and have no cap on reserves or rackghouls is like saying +2 extra to saves from a porg is bad for the game but Cunning Attack + Assassin + +4 Attack +10 Damage is ok. It makes absolutely no sense??


gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 2:34:45 AM
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Caedus wrote:
I disagree. Just because you have Reinforcements does not "guarantee" that you out activate someone? That is flat out false. You have a better chance to out activate, but to say you guarantee it does, is simply untrue. Putting a cap that includes Reinforcements makes Wuher at 9pts a ridiculously strong character that would destroy yet another archetype. This game doesn't need another Unkar Plutt, seriously.

You misunderstood what I was trying to say; I probably could have been clearer. Here's my hypothetical scenario: activation cap is set at 14 or whatever, not including Reinforcements. Everyone brings their 14 activation squads, without Reinforcements. I bring my 14 activation squad, with additional Reinforcements. Assuming no act control on either side (most act control is pretty useless at this point anyway), I am guaranteed to outactivate everyone who does not bring Reinforcements, because they are maxed out at 14 activations, and I have 14 plus whatever Reinforcements I bring in. Of course you could also play Reinforcements in a squad that starts with less than the activation cap- that's not what I was talking about.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 2:59:15 AM
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Also, limiting the number of Reinforcement options you can choose from is a bad idea on two counts. First, it creates more work when building a squad with Reinforcements. (Now I have to do the math on 50pts of characters to potentially bring in and write that down on my squad sheet, instead of just knowing what my preferred option is while having the rest of the options on the table?) Second, it doesn't really solve the central problem. It will mean some niche counters to certain squads are left out of Reinforcement pools, but Lobot's (and Jabba's) Reinforcements will maintain their potential to choose between the 7 activation dump, or additional attackers. It is way too broad of a change when Lobot and Jabba are the only Reinforcement characters that could be deemed abusive. It is not a problem that Quorreal or Farfalla or Boss Nass or any of the others can pick from all the available options. It will be a problem when people have to build an extra quarter squad just because they decided to play one of those characters.
General_Grievous
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 8:09:58 AM
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And this is why us northern types do our own thing. I feel like many people just want to play a certain type of game and think everyone should play the same thing. I completely disagree with hard activation caps and the reserve nerfs and thus we don’t follow most of the weird balance committee ideas and do our own thing instead. But anyhow you guys carry on making the game you want to play and we’ll play ours.
DarkDracul
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 10:56:52 AM
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General_Grievous wrote:
And this is why us northern types do our own thing. I feel like many people just want to play a certain type of game and think everyone should play the same thing. I completely disagree with hard activation caps and the reserve nerfs and thus we don’t follow most of the weird balance committee ideas and do our own thing instead. But anyhow you guys carry on making the game you want to play and we’ll play ours.


Many people want to play competitive SWM games and therefore need rules to follow for that competition.
The Balance Committee is only concerned with common rules for organized play and championship games.

If you intend to compete in sanctioned tournaments then you will want to know the rules.
Otherwise, it does not apply or have any impact on your local playgroup.

Caedus
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 11:38:24 AM
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
Also, limiting the number of Reinforcement options you can choose from is a bad idea on two counts. First, it creates more work when building a squad with Reinforcements. (Now I have to do the math on 50pts of characters to potentially bring in and write that down on my squad sheet, instead of just knowing what my preferred option is while having the rest of the options on the table?) Second, it doesn't really solve the central problem. It will mean some niche counters to certain squads are left out of Reinforcement pools, but Lobot's (and Jabba's) Reinforcements will maintain their potential to choose between the 7 activation dump, or additional attackers. It is way too broad of a change when Lobot and Jabba are the only Reinforcement characters that could be deemed abusive. It is not a problem that Quorreal or Farfalla or Boss Nass or any of the others can pick from all the available options. It will be a problem when people have to build an extra quarter squad just because they decided to play one of those characters.


This is LITERALLY the best reason for it. guessing the Meta is part of the game for everyone else except Reinforcement players because they can absolutely pick the "Silver Bullet" that stops the other teams squad. How is that fair to other squads? I have played 6 uggies and Knessa for 2 rounds but now that I see your BX sniper squad, I'll go grab EV and just shut your entire squad off. Oops then the next squad has Balista, so Ill just throw sy snootles in and call that a wrap?

It is EXACTLY the same for the other Reinforcement characters ESPECIALLY Quorreal. You can absolutely bring in a piece that will specifically benefit your squad more that your opponents.

There should be no way to be able to NOT have to guess and work the meta in all facets of your squad, including reinforcements. If you think the meta is going to be a certain way, build your squad AND your reinforcements that way, with your reinforcements as the special circumstances, but do it from a specific Pt value. Else you are FURTHER rewarding Reinforcements and will warp the Meta in a way that everyone plays it and we go back to absolutely every squad shows up with the same archetype. It's Daala and Thrawn all over again.
Caedus
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 11:44:59 AM
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
Caedus wrote:
I disagree. Just because you have Reinforcements does not "guarantee" that you out activate someone? That is flat out false. You have a better chance to out activate, but to say you guarantee it does, is simply untrue. Putting a cap that includes Reinforcements makes Wuher at 9pts a ridiculously strong character that would destroy yet another archetype. This game doesn't need another Unkar Plutt, seriously.

You misunderstood what I was trying to say; I probably could have been clearer. Here's my hypothetical scenario: activation cap is set at 14 or whatever, not including Reinforcements. Everyone brings their 14 activation squads, without Reinforcements. I bring my 14 activation squad, with additional Reinforcements. Assuming no act control on either side (most act control is pretty useless at this point anyway), I am guaranteed to outactivate everyone who does not bring Reinforcements, because they are maxed out at 14 activations, and I have 14 plus whatever Reinforcements I bring in. Of course you could also play Reinforcements in a squad that starts with less than the activation cap- that's not what I was talking about.



How is this any different if I bring a 12 act or a 6 act squad and you bring a 14 or 16 act squad? You still out act me? You are getting into the category of everyone should have the same number of acts in their squads? An activation cap doesn't solve people out activating each other. If my point restrictions on the squad I create, make it so that I am out activated by 3,4, or 7, what does it matter where the act cap is? The true problem with reinforcements is how VAST the pool is from which they can be summoned
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 12:13:45 PM
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Caedus wrote:
How is this any different if I bring a 12 act or a 6 act squad and you bring a 14 or 16 act squad? You still out act me? You are getting into the category of everyone should have the same number of acts in their squads? An activation cap doesn't solve people out activating each other. If my point restrictions on the squad I create, make it so that I am out activated by 3,4, or 7, what does it matter where the act cap is? The true problem with reinforcements is how VAST the pool is from which they can be summoned

The whole point of an activation cap is to limit the number of activations to a certain threshold. It's only fair if every squad is limited to that threshold. If squads with Reinforcements are effectively not, they are given an additional advantage over all other squads. My issue is not with people who play 6 act squads getting outactivated- they expect that. The issue is that people can play to the activation "limit" and still get outactivated just because they don't have Reinforcements.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 12:53:15 PM
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Caedus wrote:
This is LITERALLY the best reason for it. guessing the Meta is part of the game for everyone else except Reinforcement players because they can absolutely pick the "Silver Bullet" that stops the other teams squad. How is that fair to other squads? I have played 6 uggies and Knessa for 2 rounds but now that I see your BX sniper squad, I'll go grab EV and just shut your entire squad off. Oops then the next squad has Balista, so Ill just throw sy snootles in and call that a wrap?

It is EXACTLY the same for the other Reinforcement characters ESPECIALLY Quorreal. You can absolutely bring in a piece that will specifically benefit your squad more that your opponents.

There should be no way to be able to NOT have to guess and work the meta in all facets of your squad, including reinforcements. If you think the meta is going to be a certain way, build your squad AND your reinforcements that way, with your reinforcements as the special circumstances, but do it from a specific Pt value. Else you are FURTHER rewarding Reinforcements and will warp the Meta in a way that everyone plays it and we go back to absolutely every squad shows up with the same archetype. It's Daala and Thrawn all over again.

You're exaggerating the usefulness of "silver bullet" type Reinforcements. Sure, with the change you probably won't be bringing in EV9D9 or Unkar Plutt to hard counter a specific squad type, and that would be a good thing. But in 95% of games there is no specific silver bullet needed, and picking from a few prebuilt options will be just as good as picking from anything.

I strongly disagree that the problem is "exactly" the same for non-Fringe Reinforcements characters. Most Reinforcements can't bring in tons of useful activations, or don't get as much advantage as Jabba or Thrawn do from outactivating. And to your point, most Reinforcements have nowhere near as many "silver bullets" as there are in Fringe.

I do not see how simply leaving Reinforcements as they have always been will somehow "further" warp the meta, barring careless designers making better Fringe Reinforcement options or counters. I do see that the proposed change will be very annoying for anyone who wants to play Reinforcements. Far better to simply include Reinforcements in the activation cap if there is going to be one.
urbanjedi
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 3:49:04 PM
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Limiting reinforcements to a pool of characters actually has the potential to open up the meta.

For instance, we haven't seen very many BX squads recently because a simple EV droid basically shuts them down and is almost a hard counter too them.

If a pool is instituted, then there is the potential that not all players with fringe reinforcements will have EV on their list.

This makes for possibly more squads being available to be played.

The same holds true for other squads that have a pretty hard counter that COULD be available to reinforcements.



urbanjedi
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 3:56:41 PM
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Caedus wrote:


To allow 16 acts to include reinforcements and have no cap on reserves or rackghouls is like saying +2 extra to saves from a porg is bad for the game but Cunning Attack + Assassin + +4 Attack +10 Damage is ok. It makes absolutely no sense??




The big difference here is that reinforcements happen every game.

Other abilities that add characters (reserves, deferred orders, rak disease, porgs, celeste morne, nightsister on rancor, the list goes on) do not. They only add characters in very specific circumstances (some of which are more common than others).

There are plenty of games that happen where these other abilities (ie non-reinforcement) do not add a single character to the board.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 4:48:20 PM
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urbanjedi wrote:
Limiting reinforcements to a pool of characters actually has the potential to open up the meta.

For instance, we haven't seen very many BX squads recently because a simple EV droid basically shuts them down and is almost a hard counter too them.

If a pool is instituted, then there is the potential that not all players with fringe reinforcements will have EV on their list.

This makes for possibly more squads being available to be played.

The same holds true for other squads that have a pretty hard counter that COULD be available to reinforcements.

That's all correct, but I don't think it's worth it to further complicate squadbuilding and Reinforcements to do it. A simpler solution is better. Why not just ban poorly thought out designs like EV-9D9 and Unkar that penalize certain squads unfairly? Are they untouchable?
Caedus
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 5:36:43 PM
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
Limiting reinforcements to a pool of characters actually has the potential to open up the meta.

For instance, we haven't seen very many BX squads recently because a simple EV droid basically shuts them down and is almost a hard counter too them.

If a pool is instituted, then there is the potential that not all players with fringe reinforcements will have EV on their list.

This makes for possibly more squads being available to be played.

The same holds true for other squads that have a pretty hard counter that COULD be available to reinforcements.

That's all correct, but I don't think it's worth it to further complicate squadbuilding and Reinforcements to do it. A simpler solution is better. Why not just ban poorly thought out designs like EV-9D9 and Unkar that penalize certain squads unfairly? Are they untouchable?


Because these 2 characters aren't the only one's.

Also, because it is actually simpler to create a definitive number so that it is unlikely that if another "squad buster" is created that it gets put in a squad because you have a virtually infinite pool to choose from. Reinforcement squads have All the advantages when facing other squads. They 1.) get to see the opponents squad first and then 2.) they get to choose from the ENTIRE pool of characters available.

urbanjedi
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 5:50:10 PM
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
Why not just ban poorly thought out designs like EV-9D9 and Unkar that penalize certain squads unfairly? Are they untouchable?


Unkar has low caste and cannot be added to a squad so he really shouldn't be part of this particular discussion.
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Sunday, March 5, 2023 5:55:28 PM
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Ban the other characters too then, for all I care. No matter how many we'd have to ban, it would be easier and more intuitive than the proposed change to Reinforcements, which doesn't at all take into account the different situations of differing Reinforcement abilities.
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