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Don’t mean this to be a call-out; I was just really curious about a couple of posts in the Balance Committee thread but didn’t want to clutter it up with questions. Has Force Attuned become an NPE while I wasn’t looking? Randy wrote:Quote:Force Attuned
Once per turn on its turn, this character may use a Force Power that replaces attacks or turn, without replacing attacks or turn I think that this ability should be ruled so that you must have an attack or turn to be able to use an ability that replaces attacks or turn. At the very least the terminology referring to turn should be removed. I don't have a problem with attacking and using a Force Power in the same turn, but moving 12 squares and using a replaces attacks ability (or replace turn ability) is too much. Your choices should be... (Free Force Power), move, attack move, (Free Force Power), attack Not move all over and do your (Free Force Power) Caedus wrote:Yes and my piggy back on that would be; since a "replaces turn" effect happens at the beginning of the turn and doesn't allow (unless, of course, the "replaces turn" ability allows) you to move, that is when a "free usage" should take place. Same goes for a replaces attacks. You shouldn't be able to move 12 squares and the replace turn OR replace attacks. You should have to actually replace turn/replace attacks at a time when to replace turn/replace attacks exists. Timing should not be affected. Looking through the characters with Force Attuned, I don’t see many where moving 12 spaces and using a Force power is much different than a strong Twin Attacker with Charging Fire, except for a couple of particularly long-reach pieces like Sheev (where it’s kinda the point) and the new Revan. “Replaces Turn” abilities generally suck if they don’t give movement, and “Replaces Turn” Force powers suck even more because they usually cost 3+ Force points. I’m just really confused here. I thought Force Attuned was a “Jedi are inching toward being cool” bit and nothing more. So, Force Attuned. What are y’all’s bad experiences? I wanna hear.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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I'm kinda curious too.
Is it a concern about Talzin's CE allowing Savage Opress to Repulse 5?
I lost to a Prodigal Revan squad where he ran 12 to Repulse 4, but that was an enjoyable and close game...and frankly I like it that some force users can now do some things that firmly establish them as meta contenders (Tulak is hard to kill because of Sith Reflexes, Revan is a deep striker, etc).
If something really is broken here then I'm eager to see what it is. I'm kinda getting tired of broken....
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Things don't need to be an NPE to be wrong, in fact, I would argue that things should be corrected BEFORE they become an NPE. My take on Force Attuned is that it breaks Timing Restrictions and sets a bad precedent. The "I don't see many..." becomes the "...Ok we went too far." I think using "Free" Force Powers is great for the game, but Timing Restrictions shouldn't be broken for it, especially with or by non-Uniques.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Thanks for clarifying, Caedus. Perfectly legitimate to want to curb bad things before they take over.
If I may, is Force Attuned really breaking timing restrictions? My understanding is that it works pretty similarly to zero-time abilities like Jedi Mind Trick or Burst Lightning: they don’t “replace” anything, but you still have to be at a “do something” point in your turn; i.e. right before/after making an attack or right before/after moving. No move 9, Force Repulse, move 3.
I guess what’s really bothering me here is that Replaces Turn Force powers are near worthless without movement, and if Force Attuned can’t give them movement, much of its utility goes down the drain. Requiring to use them at start of turn doesn’t make positioning easier, it just means you do even more damage after you’ve already done your positioning.
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I have spoken with a couple of the designers that created Force Attuned. They have admitted that it doesn't work quite the way that they had intended. The replaces turn aspect was included so that Ven Zallow could use Recovery 20 at the start of his turn without replacing it. The original concept was that you could attack an enemy and then lightning them. Not run 14 squares and lightning.
As it is currently ruled, as I understand it, you cannot use 2 replace turn abilities on an activation, because if you use the ability, you no longer have a turn to replace because your turn has already begun. Yet I can take my turn and then use a replaces turn ability. Even though I don't have a turn to replace.
In other areas of the game you cannot use a "replaces attacks" ability if you don't have an attack to replace. Even if you are getting to attack. For example, you cannot use Charging Assault and Lightsaber Assault. Because you have replaced your turn, you do not have an attack to replace, even though you are making an attack. The ability creates an attack, that is not an attack.
I have the same problem with Weapons Expert. Fennec Shand can stand still, Double Attack, and then throw a grenade. Or she can run 12 squares and throw. It seems like the second version should be a different ability.
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