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Overpowerful, Underpriced, or Broken Characters Options
SignerJ
Posted: Saturday, April 6, 2013 12:08:47 PM
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Hello, how has your day been?

I'm making this thread as a general question for the Bloo Milk community: What SWM pieces do you think are too overpowered, seriously underpriced, or broken? More importantly, what specifically do you think is it that causes them to be so? This includes both V-Set pieces and WotC pieces. I'm greatly interested to hear your responses!
corranhorn
Posted: Saturday, April 6, 2013 12:10:27 PM
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Bastila JM. But that's a tired debate.
shmi15
Posted: Saturday, April 6, 2013 12:22:41 PM
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Hmmm... I will go a new route.

Mouse Droids- 3 points for a fodder piece that can keep your commanders safe, while supplying cover for any other piece in the game. I hate it

Mas Amedda, Darth Wyrlock, Boss Nass- Now why these pieces aren't exactly broken... (besides Mas) Booming voice is an ability I hate hate hate, and I feel it goes way to far with super swap squads. To me, it just means someone isn't skilled enough to play a match, so they need a crutch to fall on.

Lord Vader- Not broken by any means again! But Over powered? OF alone is a dumb ability, and to give it to a guy who can swap in and out so easily is just terrible. Thank goodness this is the only piece with that ability tho, any other ones may be more competitive and then everyone can share my pain in over powered force abilites

Act Control- While Act control should be a part of the game... I dislike the 1 activation squads. Spam squads are annoying anyways, and act control really just encourages their play. I just find it insulting almost that a match can be decided, simply b/c one guy can make a 20 plus act squad, and act 1 at a time.

These are the wizard pieces that I think set a terrible tone for the current meta, and have created huge hills for the designers to compensate for.

Thoughts on these guys?
jak
Posted: Saturday, April 6, 2013 12:22:46 PM
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I think the "dead horse, over beaten" have broken the laws of logic
coffeebean
Posted: Saturday, April 6, 2013 12:24:44 PM
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Just go look at what's in squads. If a figure is in every squad, they are over powered. Mas amedda, GOWK, Thrawn, mouse droids, dash RS, Cad bane, ugnaught, r2-d2 astromech.

Some figures are just plain better than others. Some times it's a mistake, but mostly it has to do with designer favortism.
corranhorn
Posted: Saturday, April 6, 2013 12:39:52 PM
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coffeebean wrote:
Just go look at what's in squads. If a figure is in every squad, they are over powered.


No. Just...no.
Sithborg
Posted: Saturday, April 6, 2013 3:56:14 PM
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Jerec and to a lesser extent, Carnor Jax, really, really put Imperials in a bind when designing a force user in that point range. Overpowering figures? Not really. But it shifts the power bar on design.
leshippy
Posted: Saturday, April 6, 2013 7:45:04 PM
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Uggies overpowerd, underpriced, or broken......BOOM! That was my head that just exploded......but yet i am still able to type.
countrydude82487
Posted: Saturday, April 6, 2013 9:22:03 PM
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i would bhave to say of the WOTC peices i think that mas, Thrawn (IE),Dodanna, Riekan, R2 astromech, and GOWK are pretty overpowered in comparison.

now for the v sets i would have to say Bastilla JM, YAmmosk (Not that they didn't need it), arguably MAce LOTLS, and Atton Jaq Rand are all in the powerful.

For the most part many of them are auto-includes. i mean when was the last time you saw an imperial or Republic build without mas that had ranged commander effect? Thrawn is included in most imperial builds because of how powerful the swap combo is with opportunist, Bastilla is an auto include in OR, and man y squad also include Jaq because he is both a good shooter and Door control. THe Yammosk is obviously an auto include, and for a long time so was GOWK and R2 still is . Obviously 90% of all rebel squads have Dodonna and Riekan. MAce is one that is powerful but you have to build around him at least.
DaKeyring
Posted: Saturday, April 6, 2013 11:54:09 PM
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the mouse droids. 3 point figure with a def of 20 is clearly broken, as well as relay orders. IMO should be worth at least 10
DaKeyring
Posted: Sunday, April 7, 2013 12:01:57 AM
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also the czerka. giving twin/jolt made it a must in lots of squads. just screwed up the balance of things in the game. i also hate the inclusion of Greater Mobile Attack as an ability. it has made the game ridiculous. it also made my favourite force power, lightsaber assault obsolete in a way. also the use of twin and double is another pet hate. Cad Bane is another fig that is one of the most OverPowered ever. he is all about damage output and he has none of the finesse of some of the really effective figs.
kobayashimaru
Posted: Sunday, April 7, 2013 12:40:30 AM
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A Flame war thread in the making perhaps? I think its a good topic; critically examining what a broken piece is and how they are actually broken/changing the game and altering strategy.

I think the whole meta-game concept behind consciously making 'broken' pieces was good; get the whole game to update (sorta like Magic cards).
Back in the day,
Override + Gambit attacks from R2 Astro came under a lot of scrutiny
Darth Vader Jedi Hunter/Admiral Thrawn in Black and Blue were really broken,
then came the "Big D hacks!" and banning of Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter,
the X-1 Viper droid was held to be hacks for a while in local meta...
then complaints over GOWK + force batteries...

Id have to say the GG:DAC is a fairly broken piece, especially with Gha Nackt and San Hill in 200-250.
Proxy from TFU had potential to become fairly broken in some droid squads...
Come to think of it, the Republic Commandos/super stealth squads are pretty broken too...

Nom-bombs were more of a nuisance than an actual threat. BigGrin


What actually makes a piece broken?
I suspect its in the juxtaposition/comparison: who are they fighting, and against all possible combinations of opposing squads, what are the odds that a squad containing the suspected broken piece will win?

Is there a particular quantity or ratio at which any mini becomes "broken"?
Do pieces become more broken, relative to the opposition squad?
What are the general attributes of a broken piece?
Does turn structure/design benefit or break particular pieces?

Often the broken mini: is unique, has consistently better stats, abnormal survivability and an "I Win button" special ability or commander effect.
Its then a matter of synergy between other figures; broken figures synergise unexpectedly and a little too well: they're the social butterflies of the SWM universe.
From a meta perspective, a broken piece forces people playing tournaments/competitively to play a much more generalised squad (just on the off chance they have to go up against a highly specialised Broken squad); i suspect this causes both a hitpoint disparity and an activation/tempo control disadvantage (though I haven't investigated/rigorously tested the relationship, if any).

More often than not though, a broken piece just winds up a glass cannon/damage sponge that a whole strategy relies upon: similar to the "kill the tech tree" approach to RTS videogames.
Without the broken piece, which is usually the backbone of the broken squad, that squad becomes very uncompetitive.

I hope this helps, and I look forward to reading how this thread develops.
adamb0nd
Posted: Sunday, April 7, 2013 1:04:12 AM
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most broken pieces:
droid fighter in walking mode and battle droid: come packaged with mad lean.

any character with a lightsaber: I have seen a lot with droopy blades

mandolorian on basilisk: I've seen quite a few of these come unglued at the little transparent cylinder that attaches them to the base.

Galactic Funk
Posted: Sunday, April 7, 2013 4:40:15 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
most broken pieces:
droid fighter in walking mode and battle droid: come packaged with mad lean.

any character with a lightsaber: I have seen a lot with droopy blades

mandolorian on basilisk: I've seen quite a few of these come unglued at the little transparent cylinder that attaches them to the base.



+1
TheHutts
Posted: Sunday, April 7, 2013 4:22:33 PM
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I think in terms of dramatically under-costed pieces, R2-D2 Astromech Droid is the winner. He came out in Revenge of the Sith, and is an auto-include in every Republic squad at every point level ever since. I think even at say, 15 points, he'd be hard to leave on the bench.

More of a concern was that Wizards pieces introduced abilities that make the game less fun to some extent - especially around tempo control (San Hill, Dodonna, Ozzel) and mass killing (Lancer, Yobuck). Almost every top squad in the 2010 meta immediately prior to the v-sets revolved around one of these two abilities. In comparison, the last two GenCons have been won by squads that are all about pulling out light-sabers, running at the opponent's squad, and having a fight - while it's boring if every squad is like that, it's great that less technical squads can do well.

With the v-set stuff, I have a few little quibbles about costing around Drones and Naboo stuff and think maybe Mace could have lost either Flurry or Force Absorb to tone him down a tiny bit, but I think these kinds of concerns are minor in the scheme of things, and in any case all the pieces I have concerns with came out in the first couple of v-sets - nothing in the last 3 sets is controversial as far as I'm concerned.
thereisnotry
Posted: Monday, April 8, 2013 7:22:56 AM
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I think it's once again important to distinguish between Broken and NPE (negative play experience). Different people have different NPEs...I love Mace, but others hate him. I hate the stinkin' Naboo Pilots/Troopers with deathshots, but others love them. That's just part of any game that is as long-lived and as complex/deep as ours.

There are actually very few pieces I would consider broken. Maybe none. Here is my definition for broken: A piece that is so dominant and powerful that it consistently wins tournaments, even at the hands of sub-par players. Is there any piece that dominates play right now?
--GOWK did, several years ago...you either played GOWK (or GOWK-hate) or you lost. There was no other option.
--There was also the tempo control issue (Dodonna/San/Ozzel) for a while, where you either played activation control or a mass-kill piece (yobuck/lancer/arica) or you lost. But even then, I'm sure that some people would classify tempo control pieces as NPEs or meta-shapers, and not as broken.
--I would probably consider Lord Hoth broken (esp paired with Bastilla) at the Epic 500pt level, because there are very few squads that can counter a well-built and well-played Hoth squad at 500.

There are dozens of pieces that I consider NPEs. NPEs are pieces/combos that are certainly powerful and game-changing, but they either don't win consistently, or they have some glaring weaknesses. NPEs are pieces that have mechanics/abilities that can be abused and/or exploited to gain a strangle-hold on the game in one way or another. I think that probably most of the pieces people call "broken" are actually just NPEs.
--Sorry, Bastilla is not broken. She's powerful, and she's a game-changer for sure. But the best Bastilla squad at Gencon this year rolled over and died in the first round of the playoffs. She won Gencon 2011, but hasn't done much since then. She's certainly an NPE for many people, though.
--Mace is not broken either. He may have won Gencon this year (and I, for one, and not sad about that!) but that was 2 sets ago, and there are now so many ways to beat him that he didn't even make a dent at the recent MI Regional.
--Atton Jaq Rand is absolutely not broken. He's rock-solid good for his points, and I honestly hope that we never see another piece as under-costed as he is, but he's not broken. He doesn't dominate the game.
--R2 Astromech is certainly strong, and has been for years. I wasn't playing when RotS was released, but I can imagine that he might well have been broken at that time, when there were no other movement breakers. I think that WotC probably didn't realize at the time just how powerful the movement-breaking mechanic (esp with Flight!) was for the game, and so they cost him at a mere 9pts. There's no question that R2 remains a huge bargain, but he's not broken.

And there are probably a dozen pieces which I'd think would be completely fine with just 1 or 2 minor adjustments.
--Mouse Droids...give them a new SA and they'll be fine: Diminutive (This piece does not provide cover, and it moves to an empty adjacent square when an enemy enters its square). This would remove the whole dumb Mouse-Wall problem which has plagued the game since the piece was released.
--Poggle the Lesser...make it Self-Destruct 10 (rather than 20) and REMOVE THE RAPPORT! and he'll be fine. We don't ever need another 2pt piece...especially not one that hits you for 20dmg when it dies.
--Mace...drop Flurry and he'd be fine.


Anyway, I could continue to add to these last 2 lists for a long time, but these are my thoughts. Take them for what they're worth. :)
juice man
Posted: Monday, April 8, 2013 11:09:34 AM
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leshippy wrote:
Uggies overpowerd, underpriced, or broken......BOOM! That was my head that just exploded......but yet i am still able to type.

You, sir, are an excellent typist.
juice man
Posted: Monday, April 8, 2013 11:11:33 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
most broken pieces:
droid fighter in walking mode and battle droid: come packaged with mad lean.

any character with a lightsaber: I have seen a lot with droopy blades

mandolorian on basilisk: I've seen quite a few of these come unglued at the little transparent cylinder that attaches them to the base.

ThumbsUp BigGrin LOL
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, April 8, 2013 3:41:15 PM
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leshippy wrote:
Uggies overpowerd, underpriced, or broken......BOOM! That was my head that just exploded......but yet i am still able to type.


No... just not enough alternatives for the role they play in a squad. I'm one of the few clamoring for more 2-4 pt alternatives. As long as they are little tech pieces that are situational and not useful in great numbers - and not combat pieces. (We didn't need 2pt Seps with self-destruct.)
Echo24
Posted: Monday, April 8, 2013 4:04:53 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
leshippy wrote:
Uggies overpowerd, underpriced, or broken......BOOM! That was my head that just exploded......but yet i am still able to type.


No... just not enough alternatives for the role they play in a squad. I'm one of the few clamoring for more 2-4 pt alternatives. As long as they are little tech pieces that are situational and not useful in great numbers - and not combat pieces. (We didn't need 2pt Seps with self-destruct.)


I'm curious as to what your ideas for an alternative to the Ugnaught is at 3-4 points (as far as I'm concerned, 2 point pieces should never have been a possibility in the first place). The role an Ugnaught plays is purely destroying doors, and you can't get much different than Satchel Charge without getting over 4 points.
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