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Satele Shan Options
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 12:14:22 PM
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First off I want to post her stats Cost 37
100 Unique Melee Double Attack
19 Cunning Attack
12 Intuition
20 Bodyguard
Mettle
Parry
Force 2 Renewal 1 MoTF 2
Absorb Energy
Force Leao
Lightsaber Assault
Force Push 2

I am wondering how many people find this to be a balanced fairly well costed piece.... I know I know people are probably tired of hearing from me for all the mace crap, but oh well. I won't offer my opinion yet I just want to see other people's comments about this piece first.
countrydude82487
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 12:25:39 PM
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not too bad really, i think she is a little under costed. i would put her around 42. she would still be powerful at that cost.


also i believe this belongs in customs forum
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 12:47:32 PM
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I play-tested her; originally she was 41 points, and was similar to her finished form but missing Cunning Attack and Force Push. After play-testing her a few times, I thought she was a useful piece, but I didn't think she was quite strong enough to warrant much play. So I was impressed when I saw the finished version and she'd got more attacking punch and a slightly lower cost. I think she's one of the best pieces in the set with those changes, but I think she fills a nice gap for the Old Republic - they needed someone who could stand up to big melee threats. Also, I don't think Cunning is super useful in some ways as Carth Onasi Old Republic Soldier, who is another Old Republic Tier 1 piece, also has it.

I actually played her official version for the first time yesterday. She was on fire with the dice - she made almost every single save she rolled, only needing one reroll - but even then she wasn't too hard to kill eventually. I was playing her with Carth, and Carth was doing the heavy damage at the top of the round (with a Senator), so she ended up being more of an interference piece. Absorb Energy costs 2 points, and once she's out of Force Points she has no other defense against shooters, so once she ran out she got shot to pieces pretty fast.

I like her - I think she's just what the Old Republic need. She is competitively costed, but she's the marquee piece from The Old Republic game, so I think she deserved to be competitively costed.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 1:31:30 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
I play-tested her; originally she was 41 points, and was similar to her finished form but missing Cunning Attack and Force Push. After play-testing her a few times, I thought she was a useful piece, but I didn't think she was quite strong enough to warrant much play. So I was impressed when I saw the finished version and she'd got more attacking punch and a slightly lower cost. I think she's one of the best pieces in the set with those changes, but I think she fills a nice gap for the Old Republic - they needed someone who could stand up to big melee threats. Also, I don't think Cunning is super useful in some ways as Carth Onasi Old Republic Soldier, who is another Old Republic Tier 1 piece, also has it.

I actually played her official version for the first time yesterday. She was on fire with the dice - she made almost every single save she rolled, only needing one reroll - but even then she wasn't too hard to kill eventually. I was playing her with Carth, and Carth was doing the heavy damage at the top of the round (with a Senator), so she ended up being more of an interference piece. Absorb Energy costs 2 points, and once she's out of Force Points she has no other defense against shooters, so once she ran out she got shot to pieces pretty fast.

I like her - I think she's just what the Old Republic need. She is competitively costed, but she's the marquee piece from The Old Republic game, so I think she deserved to be competitively costed.



What I see from her is a melee piece that completely makes all the high costing old republic pieces completely useless. All those sets trying to make high costing old republic pieces viable for nothing once this piece was released. I am not sure how I honestly feel about her yet and was wanting some discussion on her to help me decide my point of view. I think she outshines any other piece in the 35-40 point range and therefore should be in the 40s.
I think that in squad building you get the best techish piece in the game (bastila), the best shooter in the game (Aton Rand), another tier 1 shooter, (Carth) with those 2 getting evade (Captain), now with one of the best interference pieces in the game.
Sithborg
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 1:49:04 PM
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Remember, a lot of complaints about the OR stuff, even what was made for the Vsets, weren't that great. Yes, she is the midrange beat to support those figs. Still, I think some of the stuff is overlooked by people. Honestly, the problem with the big OR figs, is that they lack the support. You can look at it as obsoleting those figures, or you can see it as support for those figures.

And I think Kaan is better than Satele. Really, nasty damage output that makes the opponent worried about basing him.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 1:54:07 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
Remember, a lot of complaints about the OR stuff, even what was made for the Vsets, weren't that great. Yes, she is the midrange beat to support those figs. Still, I think some of the stuff is overlooked by people. Honestly, the problem with the big OR figs, is that they lack the support. You can look at it as obsoleting those figures, or you can see it as support for those figures.



the only problem is why would I support a big beat with a small beat that does just as much damage and has better survivability? Why even waste the points on the big beat at all when you can add in the other stuff I just mentioned and have a way better squad...? I mean look at old republic, won gencon last year was first after swiss this year, why did they get yet another amazingly competetive tier 1 piece?
(Edited to remove something I realized might be offensive to the designers because that is not my goal)
Sithborg
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 2:18:57 PM
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So OR can't get good pieces? Again, she is good. But I don't see having her in to help compensate for some of the bigger OR guys hurts them. They do have a lot of interesting tricks that Satele, as good as she is, does not. It isn't as if you can't use pieces other than her. If that was the case, Jaq would prevent Satele's use. Having a piece to put pressure on while you set up some of the other tricks OR can do isn't an option?
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 2:20:41 PM
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I looked at kaan as a comparison to Satele, but they are such different pieces it was hard to come to a conclusion. I feel that in squad building the satele squad I would make would be superior to the Kaan squad I could make. In someone elses hands that might not be true. But it is hard to argue with her amazing survivability while also doing good damage, while also being very mobile, she is the whole package whereas kaan seems to be a one trick pony (a very good one trick, but one trick none the less.)
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 2:23:47 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
So OR can't get good pieces? Again, she is good. But I don't see having her in to help compensate for some of the bigger OR guys hurts them. They do have a lot of interesting tricks that Satele, as good as she is, does not. It isn't as if you can't use pieces other than her. If that was the case, Jaq would prevent Satele's use. Having a piece to put pressure on while you set up some of the other tricks OR can do isn't an option?




Of course it is an option, I would say it is not the best option, but an option... As far as for tournaments, I feel the best squad old republic can run is Bastila, Satele, Aton, Carth, Klatonian Captain, Senator, filler... What I am saying is that why give it to the old republic now? Did they need her... nope, they are already doing fine with what they have, it just seems to be a trend that old republic get a lot of the most competitively priced pieces in the game in every single set.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 2:30:45 PM
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she's very undercosted, by about 10 points IMO.

MotF2 w absorb energy and mettle. Great ranged defense. Better than Corran Horn JM at 62 points.

Parry + Motf2 and mettle for melee defense. Very few figures with this.

Motf2, Cunning, assault, leap and intuition (!?!?!) for offense.

force push, why? Just because she didn't have enough i guess. Oh yeah, bodyguard just to protect that piece you really need to keep alive which also synergies with AE.


As a designer I tend to shy away from these threads because i don't feel its very fair to other designers when i criticize stat blocks, especially when I've been responsible for some figures that people complain about.

Unfortunately, there are several figures that i haven't been involved with that have moved the goal posts for design.

This is one.

There is no restraint here. She's got everything and more. Her base stats are in the 30's range. Her abilities are in the 50-60 point range. She does more than GOWK and has similar defensive capabilities.

BTW - comparing her to Kaan is moot. He's another fig that shifted goal posts.

TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 3:05:28 PM
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fingersandteeth wrote:
she's very undercosted, by about 10 points IMO.

MotF2 w absorb energy and mettle. Great ranged defense. Better than Corran Horn JM at 62 points.

Parry + Motf2 and mettle for melee defense. Very few figures with this.

Motf2, Cunning, assault, leap and intuition (!?!?!) for offense.

force push, why? Just because she didn't have enough i guess. Oh yeah, bodyguard just to protect that piece you really need to keep alive which also synergies with AE.


I do think that her lack of Force Points keeps her under control quite a bit - mettle + absorb energy + motf2 is powerful, but she can only pull that off a couple of times per game, since Absorb Energy costs 2 points.

I don't think that she has enough Force points to play a fully offensive role and a fully defensive role in the same game - she's potentially a deadly assassin piece since she has Force Leap and can do 80 damage (assuming she has Bastila activated) on the move at the top of a round, while she's obviously hard to kill with Parry and MotF2. But if she spends her Force Points on offense, she's going to roll over pretty easily.

I think she's a tier 1 piece - I really like that she's strong as an offensive piece or a defensive piece depending on the situation - but I've found her pretty fair in the (admittedly just one) game I played with her.

Also, I think the best comparison for Satele is Jarael. Before Satele was released, I would have seriously considered Jarael as my melee interference piece in a Bastila/Carth/Jaq squad, since she was just about the only option with Parry. Satele is obviously more powerful, since she has a bunch of extra abilities, Force Renewal, and +10 damage (although I'd rather have Evade than Absorb Energy), but she isn't fringe and costs an extra 14 points.
Sithborg
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 3:17:53 PM
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Absorb Energy does not work with Bodyguard.

I'm not going to deny that V4 went out of control. You just have to look at how small the text is on so many cards, and to have seen stuff cut just because there was no room. Fanboyism went for more, more, more.

Is she undercosted. Probably. But I don't believe she set the bar. The bar was set for her in the previous set. But I don't necessarily believe it is a design hindering bar. I think figures can be at a lesser power level than Satele, Carnor Jax, and Jerec, and still see play. Niche design is not a bad thing. Making something fun does not mean it has to see play. A playable piece is not necessarily a competitive piece. Some designers have an issue seeing that at times.
DARPH NADER
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 3:32:07 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
I think she outshines any other piece in the 35-40 point range and therefore should be in the 40s.


Given all of her goodies this is clearly the case and in a recent session she felt an awful lot like GOWK, minus the nonmelee defense. Probably not what the OR needed at this point IMO.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 4:04:09 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
Absorb Energy does not work with Bodyguard.

I'm not going to deny that V4 went out of control. You just have to look at how small the text is on so many cards, and to have seen stuff cut just because there was no room. Fanboyism went for more, more, more.

Is she undercosted. Probably. But I don't believe she set the bar. The bar was set for her in the previous set. But I don't necessarily believe it is a design hindering bar. I think figures can be at a lesser power level than Satele, Carnor Jax, and Jerec, and still see play. Niche design is not a bad thing. Making something fun does not mean it has to see play. A playable piece is not necessarily a competitive piece. Some designers have an issue seeing that at times.



I agree that a playable piece is not necessarily a competitive piece and I feel like the design process has taken a huge turn towards trying to produce way to many competitively priced pieces instead of playable pieces that work together in a group to make a competitive squad.
Sithborg
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 4:27:55 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
Absorb Energy does not work with Bodyguard.

I'm not going to deny that V4 went out of control. You just have to look at how small the text is on so many cards, and to have seen stuff cut just because there was no room. Fanboyism went for more, more, more.

Is she undercosted. Probably. But I don't believe she set the bar. The bar was set for her in the previous set. But I don't necessarily believe it is a design hindering bar. I think figures can be at a lesser power level than Satele, Carnor Jax, and Jerec, and still see play. Niche design is not a bad thing. Making something fun does not mean it has to see play. A playable piece is not necessarily a competitive piece. Some designers have an issue seeing that at times.



I agree that a playable piece is not necessarily a competitive piece and I feel like the design process has taken a huge turn towards trying to produce way to many competitively priced pieces instead of playable pieces that work together in a group to make a competitive squad.


All I can say is, V5 for certain is different. Some designers have seriously taken notice of the effects of certain design decisions. It's an ongoing process.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 6:21:42 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
Absorb Energy does not work with Bodyguard.



Absorb energy gains you hit points so by its nature it works with bodyguard. I never meant directly.
you need to be wounded for absorb energy to be most useful. Take the 1st, absorb the 2nd. you just take someone elses. Intuition also can put you in the way of fire aswell
She really is an excellent piece, playability off the charts. Some great internal synergies like intuition bodyguard, always protecting the right piece; motf2, mettle and absorb energy is a great one; intuition, cunning, leap, assault is a great 12 square attack and others

How awesome would she be with draw fire!!

Flapper

She is always useful.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 6:31:26 PM
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I just want to add that i don't mind terribly about it. She is certainly a great tool for the OR and The_Hutts points are not lost. She is limited by force and so i don't think she is broken. I think her and Bastilla set a strong tone across the meta but not unbeatable.

She is certainly a piece to consider carefully in future design also.
Mando
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 7:24:36 PM
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fingersandteeth wrote:


BTW - comparing her to Kaan is moot. He's another fig that shifted goal posts.



+1

Satele is not anywhere close to what Kaan has done. What Kaan has done to this game is something I hope is never repeated in future sets. IMO, Kaan should have started with 2 Force and Force Renewal 1 so he has to wait 3 turns before he can use his Bomb. Revan/Kaan is just way to powerful, and also that he can do 80 dmg with Bandon to stuff that cost's more than 36pts is another dagger to the heart of most squads. A good person to see how things ought to be done is how the new Nihilus, Lord of Hunger was designed. He starts with 1 force point and has to wait to get really good. Imagine if he started with 5 force points. Something to think about.

As far as Satele Shan is concerned, I don't have as much issues with her as others do. IMO the OR needed a mid cost jedi. I understand the complaint that the higher cost OR peices will be less used since she has appeared into the meta. All I can say is that the future sets should have some support peices for these old Jedi beats that are getting outclssed. A great way to do this is Camaraderie (which is one of the best SA's to be invented in the V-sets so far imho)
CerousMutor
Posted: Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:38:04 PM
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Mando wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:


BTW - comparing her to Kaan is moot. He's another fig that shifted goal posts.



+1

Satele is not anywhere close to what Kaan has done. What Kaan has done to this game is something I hope is never repeated in future sets. IMO, Kaan should have started with 2 Force and Force Renewal 1 so he has to wait 3 turns before he can use his Bomb. Revan/Kaan is just way to powerful, and also that he can do 80 dmg with Bandon to stuff that cost's more than 36pts is another dagger to the heart of most squads. A good person to see how things ought to be done is how the new Nihilus, Lord of Hunger was designed. He starts with 1 force point and has to wait to get really good. Imagine if he started with 5 force points. Something to think about.

As far as Satele Shan is concerned, I don't have as much issues with her as others do. IMO the OR needed a mid cost jedi. I understand the complaint that the higher cost OR peices will be less used since she has appeared into the meta. All I can say is that the future sets should have some support peices for these old Jedi beats that are getting outclssed. A great way to do this is Camaraderie (which is one of the best SA's to be invented in the V-sets so far imho)


+1
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, October 5, 2012 11:52:57 AM
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Mando wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:


BTW - comparing her to Kaan is moot. He's another fig that shifted goal posts.



+1

Satele is not anywhere close to what Kaan has done. What Kaan has done to this game is something I hope is never repeated in future sets. IMO, Kaan should have started with 2 Force and Force Renewal 1 so he has to wait 3 turns before he can use his Bomb. Revan/Kaan is just way to powerful, and also that he can do 80 dmg with Bandon to stuff that cost's more than 36pts is another dagger to the heart of most squads. A good person to see how things ought to be done is how the new Nihilus, Lord of Hunger was designed. He starts with 1 force point and has to wait to get really good. Imagine if he started with 5 force points. Something to think about.

As far as Satele Shan is concerned, I don't have as much issues with her as others do. IMO the OR needed a mid cost jedi. I understand the complaint that the higher cost OR peices will be less used since she has appeared into the meta. All I can say is that the future sets should have some support peices for these old Jedi beats that are getting outclssed. A great way to do this is Camaraderie (which is one of the best SA's to be invented in the V-sets so far imho)



I have to disagree. We already had a piece that was strong in the meta for a long time named anakin solo, that could unleash the force do 60/30 to everything within 6. I know that Kaan is obviously a better attacker and can do more damage, but anakin could unleash the force multiple times in a game, whereas Kaan can only bomb once. Revan/Kaan is powerful but not way to powerful, bring in nobles with lobot and wall revan off/ run droids and kaan does nothing to them.
Satele on the other hand has few weaknesses, she can do just as much damage as kaan, has awesome movement, can't be walled off, has better defensive capabilities can heal herself, take damage for others. Like I said earlier, Kaan is a powerful one trick piece, Satele can fit into a multitude of spots in any squad and shine at every single one of them. That is why she is better and more powerful then Kaan.
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