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Playtesting, design, accountability, and future. Options
shmi15
Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2017 6:46:23 AM
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I would also jump in and help Deaths_Baine with play testing.

But only if any concerns we had were met with real discussion, and not, "Its not competitive."

I agree with TimmerB on many many things he said. The Father is not a broken, ultra Mega piece. I don't think anyone has actually said he is? But he does HINDER future designs, like you have said already, One piece had to already be remade with him in mind. Which means he has already had an immediate impact in squad building AND designing.

To me, thats is an issue that can be dealt with, and in my mind should be dealt with, instead of just leaving him to be.



Until we get a new tabletop SW game, thats actually fun, this is the best we have. I love the idea of squad building. I love the idea of out playing an opponent. I love a whole lot about it. I was neevr a fan of the past design process, because we were alienated for being opinionated on pieces we thought were OP, or would have a negative impact in the game.

And were all biased on OP, I get it. I'm a die hard Melee fan, as you can tell with my Caedus/Vergere/Malgus squad. I get very creative in squad building, to the point where I include a piece that gives my squad door control. ( I handed out satchel charge in an 8 man, all melee squad, that was very competitive.)

I would love to get back into it. So how do we make this happen? I don't want to be involved if my only job is play this piece and give a play report. If my feed back is not valued, and my concerns not listened to... Its a waste of time.

So what say you? ThumbDown ThumbsUp

P.S. I still think the Father should just be a scenario piece, IMHO
UrbanShmi
Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2017 7:15:56 AM
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I'll just say this:

As designers, we do read the play reports. We do look at people's concerns. But it's not possible to guarantee that any individual suggestion will be acted on. The opinions most likely to be given heavy weight come from people who have a strong background in playtesting, know the current game, and offer their thoughts and suggestions in a measured, well thought out way. Saying that something is definitely overpowered just from looking at it, or even based on one or two games, is much less likely to be persuasive to a design team. Basically, if you can write up a game, accept our thanks for the work, and be okay with the fact that your opinions may or may not be given significant consideration, based on a variety of factors, you are welcome to test pieces. We need the help. But if your idea of being appreciated and respected is an 8-page discussion of any concern you bring up, even if it contradicts the thoughts of other testers and the designers' ideas about the piece, then you will probably find it a thankless job.

As for a "playtest committee"--we have one. It's mostly made up of designers who aren't currently on an active set and other playtesting VIPs, like AceAce and TheHutts. The members have access (but not posting privileges) to the entire design process of a given set, and can test the pieces they see fit. The committee is in contact with the design team on which pieces need more tests and which match ups or builds should be looked at most closely. Obviously, things get missed sometimes. But I'm not sure making the playtest committee look to the community playtesters for guidance of what to check out, rather than the design team making the pieces, would really help the situation.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2017 8:16:13 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
I just wanted an open discussion, and we are having it. I enjoy knowing as much as possible as it helps me make informed decisions about things.

I would also like to start playtesting again like I was in the past.

I am not saying that the process we have now is bad or failing, if it were we have discussions like we did a few years ago that get really heated. I am just saying that there are still concerns that I think can be addressed with the above.

and i'll go ahead and add once again:


join in the playtesting guys, even if it is only 2-3 games with 2-3 pieces even that helps.


+1 to all this

btw - we do have a playtest committee. We have for most of the vsets. It has shrunk in numbers and submissions per member (with a couple noted exceptions), but we do have it. We are always willing to offer playtest committee status to anyone who turns in a good number of quality PT reports

Quote:
We also need designers that do not get emotionally attached to their designs to the point that they fight any and all changes no matter how small. That is bad for the game and fighting to keep a stat block the same just because you like it while not recognizing that everyone else, or the majority feel it is a problem is bad for the game.


HUGE +1 million to this. (seriously guys, if you only knew)

It is REALLY HARD to do - but in the end compromise must be found. I will fight for certain things I feel strongly about - but when the rest of the group is all clearly strongly disagreeing with you, then you have to surrender. I usually push the envelope more in the beginning of the process, and scale it back and get more conservative toward the end. If there is a question of power near the end of the design process, I go the less powerful route virtually always. MUCH rather have a piece too weak than too strong. I don't think I've ever had multiple comments that a piece or SA/FP/CE is broken and not amended it somehow. Sure I will bend over backwards tinkering with it to try and make it work - but in the end I will cut it if need be.

Ask Donnyrides about our Vong adventures on Vset 14. He helped IMMENSELY with PTing that faction. I had an ability that pushed the envelope. He said it was way too strong. He was right. We went through about 5 iterations of the ability and in the end just had to cut it. Better safe than sorry. The figure is still very strong, but with less envelope pushing abilities. It is hemmed into only a very certain squad type, so that keeps its power in check.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2017 9:08:11 AM
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Joined: 5/26/2009
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Gizmotronx wrote:
Thoughts from an outsider.

I gather that my input is not valued here because I haven't playtested before.
I also gather that regular players want more people to play and come to events.
I have not participated in any events yet because I haven't even finished reading through the Vsets (started about a month ago)
I have not playtested based on the time it would involve to adequately test so many pieces.
It seems the problem is more wanting to create 70sih pieces per set, not as much designers being defensive.

So the question was never answered, IS there a reason for so many pieces in each set?
Is there a reason you don't just literally redesign the WoTC pieces that are not considered competitive?


All play test input is valuable. A newer player might not be able to give good feedback about power level, but they are in a better position to evaluate whether something makes sense to all players. And everyone can say whether something is fun or fits the character.
Echo24
Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2017 9:19:45 AM
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Joined: 9/30/2008
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Gizmotronx wrote:
Thoughts from an outsider.

I gather that my input is not valued here because I haven't playtested before.
I also gather that regular players want more people to play and come to events.
I have not participated in any events yet because I haven't even finished reading through the Vsets (started about a month ago)
I have not playtested based on the time it would involve to adequately test so many pieces.
It seems the problem is more wanting to create 70sih pieces per set, not as much designers being defensive.

So the question was never answered, IS there a reason for so many pieces in each set?
Is there a reason you don't just literally redesign the WoTC pieces that are not considered competitive?


All play test input is valuable. A newer player might not be able to give good feedback about power level, but they are in a better position to evaluate whether something makes sense to all players. And everyone can say whether something is fun or fits the character.


Absolutely. In fact, I would really love to have the opinion of a player who has never played with any other V-set pieces. Any piece could be someone's very first exposure to the V-sets; it's important that we do our best to make that as pleasant an experience as possible. Depth of design can be a good thing, but it needs to be simple enough that a brand new or long dormant player can pick it up and play with it immediately and have fun with it. They might not know every interaction immediately or understand every design decision, but they need to be able to sit down with it or across from it and not be lost.
Gizmotronx
Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2017 9:34:28 AM
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I guess I should have said it concerns me how time it takes to playtest all the pieces and how few people there are doing it. I would be willing to commit the time I have to help playtest.
Since everyone is talking about how much time they put it, reduce the size of the sets and then we could do a better job of fully testing all the pieces and not burning out the people willing to commit time.
Maybe in summary, having more time to commit to this hobby is not a badge of honor.
SithBot
Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2017 9:47:49 AM
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Joined: 11/1/2014
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Play testers are valuable.
Very valuable.

To make sure someone wants to be a part of something they have to FEEL valued.

The 8 page discussion was an EXTREME case. A piece that was very important to get right because it should "push the envelope" for power.

All pieces that are going to be power pieces should have at least 8 pages of discussion.


Playtesters should expect, that if they feel very strongly about a piece, that there suggestions are being heard. The best way to do that is for the designers to write up a "here is where we stand on your recommendation" write up.

Then they can list what they did with the playtesters request.

For instance,

1) We read your recommendation and play report and we still do not think it is an issue and we will wait for the next play report and give you an update on it. In the mean time if you still feel it is too powerful, please test it again and see if your opinion is the same so we can move forward with more certainty on where you stand after other reports come in.

2) Other reports have showed that this is not an issue, playtester "so and so" wrote this about it "give a quote from a different play test report" and they would like to play you in attempts to see where you are coming from. Please set up a play test report with them and do your best to show why it is an issue.

3) We have read it and disagree and we do not think changes are warranted because other play tests have also proven that it is not a big deal and that your report is an anomaly against one squad type and cannot be abused. We do see how in the instance against "bla bla bla" that it is very powerful, however, such and such squad did beat it before and we do not see it as an auto win against that squad type, albeit very very good against that squad type. We also feel that having this option is good for the meta right now because it can set up a "soft counter" to such and such squad.

4) We do not see where you are coming from at all and the play test committee does not see where you are coming from at all either. Can you please play test one more time and send it in? We did not foresee any possible issues at all and we do not see them right now. The couple of other play reports have said that there is no see-able issue and we asked them about your army and they do not see how it can be an issue either.


If, no designer thinks it is an issue, than maybe the challenge can be declined or something like that.
Or maybe this is when you use the official playtest committee.
atmsalad
Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2017 2:07:28 PM
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Joined: 7/26/2011
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A big THANK YOU to all the Play Testers, Designers, QCers, Rules Lawyers and Card Gurus that put hours in on each set. You're the reason we still have this game to play, enjoy with our friends, compete with, and b**** about, haha!

Like many of y'all I've had things come up in my life preventing me from devoting the time to play testing I would have liked. During set 11, Threepio's set, I was working 60 odd hours at food service jobs. During sets 12 and 13s development I was in training for my job with the national guard and most of my free time was spent studying for my exams so my time there wasn't extended.

With that being said I definitely take my share of the blame for pieces I have complaints about. Generally after each set has been finalized I have one or two designers ask if I can give the set a once over. I even recall looking over set 11 and not even noticing 3PO's power level, but in my mind I didn't think I would have to worry about a C3PO being overpowered. For sets 12 and 13 I wasn't even able to do that much, as my army training didn't allow for such free time.

Perhaps if I had said something during Threepio's design it might have made a difference. Going forward I do plan on looking much closer at each character and vastly increasing my play testing and preemptive squad building time... Assuming I don't get deployed anytime soon, haha Blink .

Fortunately, our group has become more receptive to change; we've seen some major and minor changes to pieces for competitive play over the years. Now I don't know where the conversation on Threepio will lead, and obviously I'd love to see something happen with him, but I do think our game is currently in a better place than it has been in quite a while. Part of the reason I have been so out-spoken is because I dont want to see that change anytime soon.

Lastly, I would just like to add that these kinds of conversations have helped bring about such changes in the past. In large part because of the folks previously mentioned who do care about this community and the game, keep up the good work everyone.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, May 28, 2017 9:49:45 PM
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I'll jump in and add that we are talking about a piece or 2 in the last several sets. That's actually a really good track record.

Those who've been around a few years know that there were sets where virtually every piece was pushed to be competitive and it turned out to be a disaster. The designers were obstinate and were rude and disrespectful to play testers. It turned off many people that were trying to help, and once it hit the competitive scene like a tsunami, it fractured our community and we lost gamers in droves.

It was a dark time in set design.

The important thing is that we LEARNED from our mistakes. That was over 3 years ago, and I can say with confidence that it has never been like that since.


A piece slipping through the cracks here and there happens. It's impossible to be perfect. As long as it doesn't go down the road we did before - I think we'll be good.


We are gamers. We like to complain (me fully included). But when you step back and view the whole picture - I think the designers of the last several sets have done an overall bang-up job.
blemelisk
Posted: Monday, May 29, 2017 1:28:01 PM
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I could expand my idea a bit maybe. This method/model might be helpful.

Vsets: are those published to be competitive. These are the pieces that are rock solid in their cost and their abilities have been well vetted with playtesting.

nVset: There is only 1 nVset that is a collection of all non published Vset pieces. Everyone has access to the nVset for playtest purposes at all times. Any piece can be elevated to nVset status by agreement of the community (or whatever appropriate committee). Any piece can be demoted from Vset to nVset for further review by the same method. These pieces are to be playtested, tweeked, worked on, etc but have community support to be playtested. Priority #0 pieces are those that were demoted from Vsets for playtest (timeline for these to be worked out should be within 4 weeks). Those pieces have the highest priority, and there will likely not be very many of them. The designers pieces go straight to this and have a priority #1 for playtest (with whatever time frame currently exists for playtesting). Priority #2 pieces are any other pieces in the nVset.

This set should likely have a set number of pieces not to exceed that number. Each piece should be graded solely based upon the number of times it has been playtested. A grade A piece has likely been playtested quite a bit. Where as a grade F piece hasnt been playtested at all. This will also help the playtesters know which pieces really need to be playtested more so than others. This will also help the designer to know that if his/her piece is grade A there is likely a consensus on the ballance/power etc of the piece (if it is OP/Underpowered/just right etc).

fVset: are those pieces that will never become Vsets pieces. They can be added to the nVset with the same method above, but are flagged as non competitive, and likely should have a priority #3 for playtesting purposes. These are non competitive pieces that are for fun, scenario pieces etc.

In this way you have a very open (anyone can join in) playtesting environment. If you are new to the whole thing you can jump right on in and get started with little explanation. If a person doesnt have access to the pieces that need to be playtested then that person may just not go through whatever process is required to playtest. But once they do playtest, they are very humbly asked/semi required to submit playtest reports (in whatever form those are to take).

This also opens the timeframe for a piece to be playtested. A piece might enter nVset status and be there for a year or more before fully being playtested. But, that doesnt mean in 18 or so months from now it wont enter into an Vset. I do not know what the time line is now, but 1 month is NOT enough time for me to playtest anything. There are months where I dont get to play the game. But if I have access to the pieces at all times, when I do get to play I can bring in a few pieces and playtest them and make reports. It isnt a lot, but it is at least some contribution. I feel like the timeframe is what really hurts the playtesting before a Vset is released. In this way a Vset could still be released on time as there is a much larger pool (and a pool that has been available for longer to playtest) of pieces to draw from.
TheHutts
Posted: Monday, May 29, 2017 1:30:55 PM
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blemelisk wrote:
I do not know what the time line is now, but 1 month is NOT enough time for me to playtest anything. There are months where I dont get to play the game. But if I have access to the pieces at all times, when I do get to play I can bring in a few pieces and playtest them and make reports. It isnt a lot, but it is at least some contribution. I feel like the timeframe is what really hurts the playtesting before a Vset is released. In this way a Vset could still be released on time as there is a much larger pool (and a pool that has been available for longer to playtest) of pieces to draw from.


The pieces are normally available for testing for around 4 months for each set.
blemelisk
Posted: Monday, May 29, 2017 1:45:36 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
blemelisk wrote:
I do not know what the time line is now, but 1 month is NOT enough time for me to playtest anything. There are months where I dont get to play the game. But if I have access to the pieces at all times, when I do get to play I can bring in a few pieces and playtest them and make reports. It isnt a lot, but it is at least some contribution. I feel like the timeframe is what really hurts the playtesting before a Vset is released. In this way a Vset could still be released on time as there is a much larger pool (and a pool that has been available for longer to playtest) of pieces to draw from.


The pieces are normally available for testing for around 4 months for each set.


That amount of time isnt that bad at all really. I might be able to playtest something like 2 maybe 3 times if I am lucky. I dont know everyone's schedule, others might be able to get over 100 playtest games in in that time frame. But my method above could allow for the pieces to be up for playtest longer (so they are in more playtest games) since we have a number of playtesters issue. It would really bother me if a piece went into the Vset without ever actually being played in a game. It would actually really bother me if the piece went into the Vset without being in at least 30 different playtest games. Yes, there are some pieces that come to mind that if you look at them and their stats etc you simply know, "yep this piece is woefully unlikely to break the game" (a 5 point 10 hp 16 defense 4 attack 10 damage no ability trooper). However there are some that REALLY need to be playtested (a lot of the named/unique characters come to mind such as this c3po, or anyone with a new ability/commander affect).
TheHutts
Posted: Monday, May 29, 2017 5:11:32 PM
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blemelisk wrote:
But my method above could allow for the pieces to be up for playtest longer (so they are in more playtest games) since we have a number of playtesters issue. It would really bother me if a piece went into the Vset without ever actually being played in a game. It would actually really bother me if the piece went into the Vset without being in at least 30 different playtest games. Yes, there are some pieces that come to mind that if you look at them and their stats etc you simply know, "yep this piece is woefully unlikely to break the game" (a 5 point 10 hp 16 defense 4 attack 10 damage no ability trooper). However there are some that REALLY need to be playtested (a lot of the named/unique characters come to mind such as this c3po, or anyone with a new ability/commander affect).


I like the current cycle where there's a physical set of cards every 6 months. I don't think there's too many problems with our current system - there was obviously a communication lapse in the case of C-3PO, where the designer could have listened better and the play-testers could have played another test to get their point across - but this situation is the exception, not the norm. Right now, I feel like we're in a place where we don't have the numbers to spare, and we don't want to disenfranchise anyone who's currently doing a good job serving the community.

C-3PO is also an exception in that he's a self-contained unique piece. Historically, the biggest problems in the v-sets have come from non-uniques (Klat Assassin, Imperial Governor) or from pieces that boost non-uniques (Daala, Warrior Caste Subcommander). Any cheap new trooper in a faction with trooper boosts would actually need to be tested very carefully, especially if it fits into a variety of builds.
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, May 29, 2017 7:17:27 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
blemelisk wrote:
But my method above could allow for the pieces to be up for playtest longer (so they are in more playtest games) since we have a number of playtesters issue. It would really bother me if a piece went into the Vset without ever actually being played in a game. It would actually really bother me if the piece went into the Vset without being in at least 30 different playtest games. Yes, there are some pieces that come to mind that if you look at them and their stats etc you simply know, "yep this piece is woefully unlikely to break the game" (a 5 point 10 hp 16 defense 4 attack 10 damage no ability trooper). However there are some that REALLY need to be playtested (a lot of the named/unique characters come to mind such as this c3po, or anyone with a new ability/commander affect).


I like the current cycle where there's a physical set of cards every 6 months. I don't think there's too many problems with our current system - there was obviously a communication lapse in the case of C-3PO, where the designer could have listened better and the play-testers could have played another test to get their point across - but this situation is the exception, not the norm. Right now, I feel like we're in a place where we don't have the numbers to spare, and we don't want to disenfranchise anyone who's currently doing a good job serving the community.

C-3PO is also an exception in that he's a self-contained unique piece. Historically, the biggest problems in the v-sets have come from non-uniques (Klat Assassin, Imperial Governor) or from pieces that boost non-uniques (Daala, Warrior Caste Subcommander). Any cheap new trooper in a faction with trooper boosts would actually need to be tested very carefully, especially if it fits into a variety of builds.


Well said on all the above Hutts
Darth_Jim
Posted: Monday, May 29, 2017 7:30:46 PM
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Regarding the job the designers, playtesters, and everyone involved in the process from start to finish have done since 2010, I ask you...is the game better now? I think the answer to that question is yes. Remember that meta? 25 activations, tempo control, outactivate/smash. The meta now is so much more wide open. More than 2 factions have a shot at winning it all. Yeah, there are drawbacks, like pieces slipping through the cracks now and then... and it IS much more complicated to get a new person up and running in the competitive end of things. On the other hand, in casual play the pool of characters can be tailored to fit the local group and cut down on that learning curve.

I'm not a designer...never have been. A lot of you posting here would be much better than me at that. That's not false modesty, that's a fact. I haven't helped with playtesting either, due to life happening (I'm a grampa now) and the fact that my son who plays lives 5 hours away and I have no play group left here. I still love the game and I enjoy the company of the players I've met. Heck, just while trying to catch up with this post as I've been out of town I've been talking to Gerry Russell via text about X Wing and Bronson via Facebook about football. I've made friends with people here that extend beyond the game.

That brings me to the point I'd like to make. Let's all be civil about things here. We all have one thing in common...this game. We've all seen friendships end due to political, social, or religious hate spewed on Facebook. Let's not do that here. I like you all for simple reason that you love this game.
atmsalad
Posted: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 12:18:15 PM
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In regards to set size, I think we are exactly where we need to be and where we should stay. The size allows designers to exercise their imaginations and impact the competitive meta yearly. Completely swinging the pendulum and creating unforeseen side effects is much more likely to happen with increased set size. Anything less we just wont be putting out enough characters to keep the community interested. Anything more we run the risk of decreasing the quality of design on each set.

My personal opinion, what we need to do is focus in on the quality of play tests even more than increasing the quantity.
donnyrides
Posted: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 1:22:53 PM
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Future playtesters,

Maybe you think "I don't have somebody to play against". That's not a problem. Install Vassal and play against yourself. It works great and you can reset your setup quickly to try a different playstyle and really dig into each ability. A solo playtest takes about 1 hour to play though enough to test out the piece. You don't have to play to the completion of the game, what's most important is using the piece you are testing, which in a lot of cases testing solo is better for.

So in just over an hour, you can test out a piece from a few different angles and against a few different squad types since you don't have to wait on another human. You just build 2 opposing force squads (OPFOR) to play against and have one just sitting on the side of the vassal map and set the other one up as normal. Then set up your testing character squad squad and save your game. From now on you can reset your game very quickly.

The report you send back is easy to fill out and with good notes only takes about 15 minutes to write up.

It's good to get in on the design side once in a while. You get to see what's in the works and you can have a little input on what you think of the character you are testing. I've had multiple reports that have altered how a character was built and have brought up things that the design team might have overlooked. It makes me feel like I'm doing my part.

In the end, it's just a lot of fun. I think all of us regulars out here on Bloomilk should at least do a few tests just to sort of pay our respect to the site we love to frequent (for free BTW). Without Bloomilk, and without the Vsets, the game would have been dead a long time ago.

---sometimes I just like to hear myself talk..type....whatever BigGrin
shmi15
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 5:15:08 AM
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By the end of the day I will have re-downloaded Vassal. Would someone kindly tell me who to contact to receive pieces for playtesting?
Naarkon
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 7:09:11 AM
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I have Vassal and am free most evenings after 9 pm (central us). If anyone wants to playtest with someone just shoot me a bloomail.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 7:40:40 AM
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shmi15 wrote:
By the end of the day I will have re-downloaded Vassal. Would someone kindly tell me who to contact to receive pieces for playtesting?


Bad timing. PT for set 14 just wrapped up. PT for set 15 will start maybe as early as July 1 on a few pieces. The majority of the set will be in PT from September-November.

DarkDracul will be able to send you some pieces once they are ready. Send him a PM in a month or two if you don't hear from him.
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