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Pre-Game and Pre-Round Procedures Options
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 4:20:51 PM
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Pre-Game and Pre-Round Procedures


There have been many questions about pre-game and pre-round procedures. This is a list of pre-game and pre-round procedures (similar to the step-by-step instructions for attacks) that attempts to answer all of them at the same time.

I have done my best to go through all of the relevant resources to consolidate all the rulings in one place and put them in order. (FAQ, glossary, errata, rules threads.) In some places, I had to make some guesses, so I filled in gaps to the best of my ability. I marked things with "***" when I wasn't sure of the answer. Please point out errors, point me to the answers to unresolved questions, and point out any relevant rules ambiguity that this list does not cover. I will update this top post with any corrections.

Multi-player is also covered here. Some of the issues that come up in multi-player may not even have official answers, so I have included what seems most logical.

====

This is the pre-game procedure from the floor rules:

    1. Players begin the pregame procedure by revealing their squads to each other.
    2. Players roll to determine which player will chose the map to be played on.
    3. The player with the higher roll chooses which map will be played on. The player with the lower roll selects whether to set up first or second. The player who sets up first selects a side and sets up his miniatures, then the other player sets up on the opposite side.
    4. Players roll for initiative to determine who will play first.


Here is the detailed version:

Beginning of game
    1. Players begin the pregame procedure by revealing their squads to each other.

    2. Resolve “deferred squadbuilding” abilities that trigger after seeing the opponent’s squad. This includes Reinforcements and the first half of Bribery, for example. Players simultaneously reveal their decisions about bringing in additional characters.

    3. Characters that are added to a squad via abilities like Reinforcements and Bribery are added to their squads. (Normally, order will not matter. If it does, order players randomly and resolve their abilities player by player.)

    4. Other abilities that trigger after seeing the opponent’s squad activate. This includes Telepathic Insight and Con Artist, for example. Players with these abilities simultaneously reveal their decisions. (Normally, order will not matter. If it does, order players randomly and resolve their abilities player by player.)

    5. Players roll to determine which player will choose the map to be played on.

    6. The player with the highest roll chooses which map will be played on. The player with the lower roll selects whether to set up first or second. The player who sets up first selects a side and sets up his miniatures. (In a multi-player game, the player with the highest roll chooses the map. The second-highest roll chooses his position in the setup order. Then the third-highest roll chooses her position in the setup order. This continues in order until finally, the player who selected the map takes the remaining unselected position in the setup order.)

    7. In setup order, a player sets up by selecting a setup area and then setting up his miniatures. Abilities for that player that trigger during setup activate. For example, this includes Light Tutor, Dark Master, Light Spirit, and Dark Spirit. The player chooses the order to resolve the abilities. (***)

    8. If there is a player who has not yet set up, return to step 7 and the next player in setup order sets up.

    9. Resolve abilities that trigger after setup. For example, this includes Programmed Target; Lightsaber Trainer; Versatility; the second half of Bribery; and Admiral Gilad Pellaeon’s commander effect.
      a. All players simultaneously reveal all decisions regarding these abilities, except decisions that require movement.

      b. First, abilities that change squad composition are resolved. Old characters are removed from a squad and then new characters are added to the squad. Abilities that change squad composition are resolved in setup order. (***Thus, in a multiplayer game, a player setting up first has the first chance to bribe away a character if more than one player wants to bribe the same character.) If a player has more than one of these abilities, the player chooses the order to resolve them.

      c. Abilities conferred by Bribery, Versatility, or a similar ability are gained by the relevant characters. If any characters gain abilities that normally would have been resolved before this point during setup (e.g. Con Artist), resolve those abilities immediately. This occurs in setup order. If a player has more than one of these abilities, the player chooses the order to resolve them. (***)

      d. Finally, other abilities are completely resolved in setup order. This includes abilities requiring movement (Crix Madine, SpecForce Commander’s commander effect). If a player has more than one, he decides the order to resolve the effects. (Note that Battle Ready is not resolved at this time. Follow the card instead of the glossary and resolve it after first round initiative.) (***)

    10. A pre-game door check happens. Note that there is a pre-game door check, but there is no pre-round door check, so doors do not open after abilities such as Intuition or Surprise Move.


Beginning of round

    1. Tactics Broker is resolved. Each player with Tactics Broker selects and simultaneously reveals both a character to be defeated and an opponent. The characters are defeated in a randomly determined order. The chosen opponents’ initiative checks will be a 1.

    2. Players roll the dice for initiative. A player with Recon (or a similar ability) rolls twice and selects one of them.

    3. Players with Tactician, Covenant Watch Circle or a similar ability add to their die rolls if applicable.

    4. If there is a tie for the high roll, Tactics Broker and Tactician are canceled this round. All players return to step 2.

    5. Once per round, players with Sense the Future make and simultaneously reveal their decisions about whether to use Sense the Future. Players using Sense the Future spend their Force points. (*** Not sure what happens when Sense the Future faces off against itself, especially in multiplayer.) (*** Note errata - Sense the Future is before initiative is determined: http://www.bloomilk.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&m=122714 )
      a. If all players use Sense the Future, initiative remains the same.

      b. Otherwise, players who chose to use Sense the Future simultaneously reveal their decisions about who to exchange with (if anyone).

      c. In initiative order (as determined in step 5), players using Sense the Future exchange die rolls with the player they selected.

      d. Return to step 3.

    6. Initiative is determined. The high roll wins initiative unless a player is able to use Master Tactician or a similar ability (such as Darth Sidious, Sith Mastermind’s commander effect), in which case that player wins initiative. If multiple players have these abilities, the highest roll wins. In a multi-player game, if there is a tie for highest roll among these players (where they did not tie for the highest roll overall and therefore did not have to reroll), roll again until a winner is determined. These additional rolls do not change players’ initiative checks. (***)

    7. Once per round, players with Anticipation make and simultaneously reveal their decision about whether to use Anticipation. Players who chose to use Anticipation reroll. (Reroll 2 dice if using Recon or a similar ability.) Return to step 3.

    8. Players who gain Reserves simultaneously reveal which pieces they are bringing in. (They are not placed on the board yet.) (***)

    9. The player who won initiative decides who goes first. Initiative order proceeds clockwise around the table after the first player.

    10. In initiative order, a player resolves all other abilities that trigger after initiative is determined. Abilities are resolved in the order of his choosing. For example, this includes Resol’nare, Surprise Move, Intuition, and the Covenant Consular’s commander effect. (Note that Reserves does not trigger at this time. It triggers immediately before a player’s first activation of the round.) (***)

    11. If other players have abilities that trigger after initiative is determined, return to step 10.

    12. Resolve all other abilities that trigger "immediately before the first activation". The first player is the acting player and decides the order to resolve these abilities. For example, this includes Battle Ready during the first round. For the first player, this also includes placing Reserves and the "return to grid" parts of abilities like Mount.

    13. The first phase begins. There is only one activation in the first phase. Two activations in subsequent phases.


Uncertain about the following:

1. When are pre-game movement abilities resolved and in what order? Before or after Versatility/Pellaeon? Related: Battle Ready's card/glossary conflict. I assume we follow the card. Is there a difference between "immediately before the first activation" and "after initiative is determined"?
2. (*** Unresolved timing issue between Con Artist and Camaraderie/Versatility. Also affects Disruptive:
http://www.bloomilk.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13181&p=2 )
3. When do characters brought in through Bribery gain their conferred benefits? (related to previous issue)
4. What if Pellaeon wants to replace someone (e.g. Jagged Fel) that Bribery wants to bribe away? Proposed timing solution above.
5. In beginning of game, step 7, must all players reveal their decisions at the same time and then resolve them in setup order?
6. What differences are there between the following: "after initiative is determined", "immediately before the first activation of the round, "immediately before your first activation" (assuming you are the first player)?

Additional issues specifically related to multi-player:
7. What happens with Sense the Future vs Sense the Future? Especially in multiplayer. Possible solution above.
8. How are Master Tactician ties resolved in a multi-player game, especially when neither player had the high initiative roll. Possible solution above.
9. What if multiple players want to use Bribery on the same enemy? Possible solution above.

===
Disclaimer: I am not a rules authority, but to my knowledge this list is consistent with all official rulings. I believe all of my judgment calls are marked with asterisks (***) and explained in the section at the end titled "Uncertain about the following".
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2014 1:01:58 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:


Uncertain about the following:

1. When are pre-game movement abilities resolved and in what order? Before or after Versatility/Pellaeon?


After. All movement is performed after squad building modifications are finished and after initiative is rolled. This is to ensure that opposing battle readies intuition etc works in initiative order.

Quote:
2. (*** Unresolved timing issue between Con Artist and Camaraderie/Versatility. Also affects Disruptive:
http://www.bloomilk.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13181&p=2 )


For Marn, cameraderie happens upon reveal.

Versatility and Palleaon happen immediately before the 1st init. The discrepancy isn't resolved as yet but in order for them to function camaraderie of the replaced figured doesn't activate until after the final decisions are made

Quote:
3. When do characters brought in through Bribery gain their conferred benefits? (related to previous issue)

As soon as the decision on what pieces are brought in.

Quote:
4. What if Pellaeon wants to replace someone (e.g. Jagged Fel) that Bribery wants to bribe away? Proposed timing solution above.


Bribery gets him first.

Quote:
5. In beginning of game, step 7, must all players reveal their decisions at the same time and then resolve them in setup order?

Whoever sets up first places all their pieces, makes haunt decisions etc. Then the next player sets up, then versatility and pelleaon, then init, then movement.



i'm not touching multiplayer, house rule it.


FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2014 4:14:29 PM
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Deri,

Thanks! Do you happen to have links to the official rulings for those?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2014 4:30:40 PM
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fingersandteeth wrote:
Quote:
4. What if Pellaeon wants to replace someone (e.g. Jagged Fel) that Bribery wants to bribe away? Proposed timing solution above.


Bribery gets him first.


Which of these?
(a) The second half of Bribery is resolved first. After that, Peallaeon is resolved.
(b) Reveal decisions simultaneously. If Pellaeon's chosen commander is bribed away, player with Bribery takes the bribed commander and the Imperial player gets no replacement.
(c) Reveal decisions simultaneously. If Pelleaon's chosen commander is bribed away, player with Bribery takes the bribed commander and the Imperial player still gets to bring in the chosen replacement.
(d) Reveal decisions simultaneously. If Pelleaon's chosen commander is bribed away, player with Bribery takes the bribed commander. The Imperial player then gets to replace a different commander via Pellaeon.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2014 4:43:11 PM
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fingersandteeth wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:


Uncertain about the following:

1. When are pre-game movement abilities resolved and in what order? Before or after Versatility/Pellaeon?


After. All movement is performed after squad building modifications are finished and after initiative is rolled. This is to ensure that opposing battle readies intuition etc works in initiative order.


The glossary for Battle Ready says "before the first initiative roll", so I have down that they are in setup order. I think it does make sense to save pre-game movement for the last thing resolved before the pre-game door check.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:50:39 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:


Uncertain about the following:

1. When are pre-game movement abilities resolved and in what order? Before or after Versatility/Pellaeon?


After. All movement is performed after squad building modifications are finished and after initiative is rolled. This is to ensure that opposing battle readies intuition etc works in initiative order.


The glossary for Battle Ready says "before the first initiative roll", so I have down that they are in setup order. I think it does make sense to save pre-game movement for the last thing resolved before the pre-game door check.


That's awkward, IMO.

so this is still based on who won map? all movement should be after the roll IMO.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:54:38 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
Quote:
4. What if Pellaeon wants to replace someone (e.g. Jagged Fel) that Bribery wants to bribe away? Proposed timing solution above.


Bribery gets him first.


Which of these?
(a) The second half of Bribery is resolved first. After that, Peallaeon is resolved.
(b) Reveal decisions simultaneously. If Pellaeon's chosen commander is bribed away, player with Bribery takes the bribed commander and the Imperial player gets no replacement.
(c) Reveal decisions simultaneously. If Pelleaon's chosen commander is bribed away, player with Bribery takes the bribed commander and the Imperial player still gets to bring in the chosen replacement.
(d) Reveal decisions simultaneously. If Pelleaon's chosen commander is bribed away, player with Bribery takes the bribed commander. The Imperial player then gets to replace a different commander via Pellaeon.


Ok, i should have read bribery more carefully before.

(b) Reveal decisions simultaneously. If Pellaeon's chosen commander is bribed away, player with Bribery takes the bribed commander and the Imperial player gets no replacement.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:57:09 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Deri,

Thanks! Do you happen to have links to the official rulings for those?


No, i'm offering my opinion.

urbanjedi
Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:02:14 PM
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unless there is something I am missing, there isn't any piece that has imperial reinforcements making the bribery/pelleaon question a moot point.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:04:14 PM
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urbanjedi wrote:
unless there is something I am missing, there isn't any piece that has imperial reinforcements making the bribery/pelleaon question a moot point.


Correct, but it should have an answer in case it (or something similar) happens in the future.
swinefeld
Posted: Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:22:02 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
unless there is something I am missing, there isn't any piece that has imperial reinforcements making the bribery/pelleaon question a moot point.


Correct, but it should have an answer in case it (or something similar) happens in the future.


Agreed.
Dr Daman
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 4:03:33 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Beginning of round

1. Tactics Broker is resolved. Each player with Tactics Broker selects and simultaneously reveals both a character to be defeated and an opponent. The characters are defeated in a randomly determined order. The chosen opponents’ initiative checks will be a 1.

2. Players roll the dice for initiative. A player with Recon (or a similar ability) rolls twice and selects one of them.

3. Players with Tactician add to their die rolls if applicable.

4. If there is a tie for the high roll, Tactics Broker and Tactician are canceled this round. All players return to step 2.

5. Initiative is determined. The high roll wins initiative unless a player is able to use Master Tactician or a similar ability (such as Darth Sidious, Sith Mastermind’s commander effect), in which case that player wins initiative. If multiple players have these abilities, the highest roll wins. In a multi-player game, if there is a tie for highest roll among these players (where they did not tie for the highest roll overall and therefore did not have to reroll), roll again until a winner is determined. These additional rolls do not change players’ initiative checks. (***).


I was told (and we've always played it this way) that if there was a initiative roll tie between a player with Master Tac and a player without it, that MT is also cancelled for the subsequent re-roll. In step 4 you say that only Tactician and Tactics Broker are unusable for the 2nd roll. Is this right? Has most of NZ been playing this wrong? Confused
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 4:22:48 AM
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Dr Daman wrote:
I was told (and we've always played it this way) that if there was a initiative roll tie between a player with Master Tac and a player without it, that MT is also cancelled for the subsequent re-roll. In step 4 you say that only Tactician and Tactics Broker are unusable for the 2nd roll. Is this right? Has most of NZ been playing this wrong? Confused


Looks like it.

http://swmgamers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=11282&p=128520

fingersandteeth
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 6:15:51 AM
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Ive always played that MT works unless you roll a one, even on ties, because you choose who goes first.

Tactics broker makes your opponents roll a 1 so if you tie its because you also rolled 1 and you lose tactics broker on the reroll

if you tie a tactician, the re-reroll doesn't get a bonus.

i'm pretty sure these are the correct ways to play them
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 7:38:21 AM
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If there's a tie and you have Master Tactician, you reroll but you still win unless it's a 1.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, April 12, 2014 11:55:52 AM
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fingersandteeth wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
The glossary for Battle Ready says "before the first initiative roll", so I have down that they are in setup order. I think it does make sense to save pre-game movement for the last thing resolved before the pre-game door check.


That's awkward, IMO.

so this is still based on who won map? all movement should be after the roll IMO.


All movement should be according to the respective rules for each movement ability. IMO. :)

As UrbanShmi just pointed out in another thread, the card does say immediately before the first activation. There is a discrepancy between the card and glossary - I think we should follow the card, and I will update the post above to reflect that.

But Crix Madine's movement should still be before initiative.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, April 12, 2014 3:28:09 PM
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I just noticed this thread and adjusted accordingly:

http://www.bloomilk.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&m=122714

The change is that Sense the Future happens before initiative is determined. The effect is small, because I had all the other interactions correct. The only actual difference is that the once-per-round Sense the Future decision happens before the once-per-round Anticipation decision.

This does produce the following potentially odd interaction:
* Player A has Sense the Future and Player B has Anticipation.
* Player A rolls 15 for initiative. Player B rolls 12.
* Player A declines to use Sense the Future.
* Player B uses Anticipation and rolls a 16.
* Player A now would like to use Sense the Future but it is too late, since that option only comes up once per round.

If this interaction is incorrect, please indicate how the sequencing should work.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, April 12, 2014 4:06:22 PM
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I just added this question:

What differences are there between the following: "after initiative is determined", "immediately before the first activation of the round, "immediately before your first activation" (assuming you are the first player)? Also the "immediately add" characters part of Reserves.

These are the pre-round wording options:

"If... you roll exactly X for initiative, you may immediately add up to X points of X characters" - first part of Reserves

"after initiative is determined" - vast majority of pre-round abilities have this wording

"immediately before the first activation of the round" - Battle Ready (round 1 only)

"immediately before your first activation of the round" (assuming you are going first) - 2nd part of Reserves (placement), returning to the grid from Mount and similar abilities


I see several possible interpretations. This isn't even all of them - I could probably come up with a dozen different ones. I have gone with option A.

A. The "immediately" part of Reserves means after initiative is determined but before the initiative winner decides who goes first. Everything else happens in init order after deciding who goes when. "Immediately before an activation" comes after the majority of abilities, which fall in the "after initiative is determined" category. "Immediately before the first activation of the round" and "immediately before your first activation of the round" are the exact same time if you are going first. If you are going first, you are the acting player and can decide which order those abilities are resolved.

B. Same as A, but the "immediately before" abilities are resolved in initiative order.

C. Same as A, but the "immediately before" abilities are actually the same as the "after initiative" abilities and are resolved in initiative order.

D. All 4 of these are actually the exact same thing and are resolved together in initiative order.
pegolego
Posted: Monday, June 9, 2014 7:06:50 PM
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"7. Once per round, players with Anticipation make and simultaneously reveal their decision about whether to use Anticipation. Players who chose to use Anticipation reroll. (Reroll 2 dice if using Recon or a similar ability.) Return to step 3."

Ooohhh, I hadn't known that... So, if I have Recon and use Anticipation, I essentially can have 4 rolls (only, if I choose to reroll, I have to pick from the second set of 2)?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, June 9, 2014 7:09:11 PM
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pegolego wrote:
"7. Once per round, players with Anticipation make and simultaneously reveal their decision about whether to use Anticipation. Players who chose to use Anticipation reroll. (Reroll 2 dice if using Recon or a similar ability.) Return to step 3."

Ooohhh, I hadn't known that... So, if I have Recon and use Anticipation, I essentially can have 4 rolls (only, if I choose to reroll, I have to pick from the second set of 2)?


Correct. Anticipation + Recon is pretty amazing for Reserves squads. Unfortunately, an MtB pretty well hoses you no matter what.
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