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Eroschilles
Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2009 6:23:58 AM
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So, for each extra attack Boba gets in a given turn, he increases his chance of getting a disintegration by about 9%?
defender390
Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2009 9:26:38 AM
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Yes, about 9%. It will slowly decrease over time, but it is a negligible amount for the purposes of the game.

Single Attack with Twin Attack: 9.75%
Double Attack with Twin Attack: 18.5494%
Triple Attack with Twin Attack: 26.4908%
Quadruple Attack with Twin Attack: 33.658%
Quintuple Attack with Twin Attack: 40.1263%
Sextuple Attack with Twin Attack: 45.964%

I doubt we will ever see that many attacks, though.
__________________________________________________________________________

I added in the chances for pulling missing pieces out of your second case and your chances to pull the entire set with various numbers of cases in my second post on the front page.
Del Muerte
Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:18:44 PM
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Math challenge: What are the odds of a Master tactics, aka Thrawn, winning and losing initiative? no recon.
defender390
Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:53:08 PM
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That is a difficult one. The chances are dependant upon your opponents roll also. You could theoretically re-roll initiative checks indefinitely, so it is not as simple as a 95% success rate.

A 1 is an automatic fail (5%)
The chances of a tie is 1/20 (5%)

So, that is a 90% chance of success on your first roll with a 5% chance of rolling again. If you roll again, it is the same chances as before. This means that you could go on forever finding the chances.

1. Fail: .05
2. Reroll, Fail: .05^2
3. RRF: .05^3
4. RRRF: .05^4
5. RRRRF: .05^5
6. RRRRRF: .05^6
7. RRRRRRF: .05^7
8. RRRRRRRF: .05^8
9. RRRRRRRRF: .05^9
10. RRRRRRRRRF: .05^10

This is just an approxamation, it goes on forever. This is one of those things where math becomes illogical. At some point, you could eventually reach 100%. That is obviously erroneous. Anyway, with those ten scenarios, these are my findings:

Success Rate: 94.73684211%
Failure Rate: 5.26315789%
Mandalore Da Beast
Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2009 3:00:45 PM
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Location: Desintegrating some Djem So Sucka!
wow.
Del Muerte
Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2009 4:20:24 PM
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defender390 wrote:
That is a difficult one. The chances are dependant upon your opponents roll also. You could theoretically re-roll initiative checks indefinitely, so it is not as simple as a 95% success rate.

A 1 is an automatic fail (5%)
The chances of a tie is 1/20 (5%)

So, that is a 90% chance of success on your first roll with a 5% chance of rolling again. If you roll again, it is the same chances as before. This means that you could go on forever finding the chances.

1. Fail: .05
2. Reroll, Fail: .05^2
3. RRF: .05^3
4. RRRF: .05^4
5. RRRRF: .05^5
6. RRRRRF: .05^6
7. RRRRRRF: .05^7
8. RRRRRRRF: .05^8
9. RRRRRRRRF: .05^9
10. RRRRRRRRRF: .05^10

This is just an approxamation, it goes on forever. This is one of those things where math becomes illogical. At some point, you could eventually reach 100%. That is obviously erroneous. Anyway, with those ten scenarios, these are my findings:

Success Rate: 94.73684211%
Failure Rate: 5.26315789%


Looks good I got 94.95 but I stop sooner than you did so its all G.
defender390
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2009 7:02:58 AM
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Thought you tricked me, didn't you?

Off Topic: Does anybody want to see any examples of illogical math?
Mandalore Da Beast
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2009 10:16:09 AM
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im afraid, but willing. maybe my fear will induce some dark side D20 trickery....ThumbsUp
defender390
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2009 11:58:29 AM
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Well, these are not really Star Wars related, but who cares?

The first on is easy:
1/9=.11111...
.11111...*9=.99999...
Therefore 9/9 does not equal 1, it equals .99999...

How about this:
Let a=b
That means a2=ab
That also means a2-b2=ab-b2
That also means [(a+b)(a-b)]/(a-b)=(ab-b2)/(a-b)
That simplifies to a+b=b
Which also means 2b=b
That proves that 2=1

P.S. There is a reason why the second one does not work, can you figure it out?


LoboStele
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 2:24:13 AM
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You're dividing by 0. :P

Good stuff though. It's nice to have a refresher on how the statistics work for figuring out things like saves and stuff.

The stuff about getting a full set from multiple cases is cool too. Though if we were talking the Clone Wars set it would go from 1.5% chance with two cases, to a 50% chance. :P Darn clustering.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 3:02:16 AM
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Posts: 8,408
defender390 wrote:
Well, these are not really Star Wars related, but who cares?

The first on is easy:
1/9=.11111...
.11111...*9=.99999...
Therefore 9/9 does not equal 1, it equals .99999...


.999999999... = 1

It's not illogical. Those two are equivalent.


Quote:

1. Fail: .05
2. Reroll, Fail: .05^2
3. RRF: .05^3
4. RRRF: .05^4
5. RRRRF: .05^5
6. RRRRRF: .05^6
7. RRRRRRF: .05^7
8. RRRRRRRF: .05^8
9. RRRRRRRRF: .05^9
10. RRRRRRRRRF: .05^10

This is just an approxamation, it goes on forever. This is one of those things where math becomes illogical. At some point, you could eventually reach 100%.


This isn't illogical either. 100% is the limit of the summation. (An infinite summation with a finite sum could be viewed as a variation of Zeno's paradoxes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes .)

defender390
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 5:27:49 AM
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Posts: 396
LoboStele wrote:
You're dividing by 0. :P

You win.
Lobostele wrote:
The stuff about getting a full set from multiple cases is cool too. Though if we were talking the Clone Wars set it would go from 1.5% chance with two cases, to a 50% chance. :P Darn clustering.

Yeah, I intentionally avoided clustering in my figures.
FlyingArrow wrote:
.999999999... = 1
It's not illogical. Those two are equivalent.

The overall point of the problem is illogical.
9/9=1 and 9/9=.99999..., so .99999...=1
But, 1-.99999...=.00000...1
That means that you have an infinite number of 0s with a one on the end. That would be considered equivilent to 0. This also means that 1 and .99999.... are not the same number since there is a difference between them, you simply never reach it. But since there is a difference, you can average them, it would be .99999...05. You end up with weird stuff no matter if you say they are equal or are not equal. If they are equal then two technically different numbers equal each other, but if they are not equal then a number divided by itself is not 1. The problem lies in infinite numbers. I should have clarified. .999999...=1 is not illogical, but infinite numbers can be seen as illogical. If I had to make a choice, I would say they are equal, it results in less problems. There are still issues with that, though.
FlyingArrow wrote:
This isn't illogical either. 100% is the limit of the summation. (An infinite summation with a finite sum could be viewed as a variation of Zeno's paradoxes)

True, but for the purposes of the game it is illogical. Thrawn will not win 100% of the time.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 5:42:53 AM
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Posts: 8,408
defender390 wrote:

FlyingArrow wrote:
.999999999... = 1
It's not illogical. Those two are equivalent.

The overall point of the problem is illogical.
1-.99999...=.00000...1
That means that you have an infinite number of 0s with a one on the end. That would be considered equivilent to 0. This also means that 1 and .99999.... are not the same number since there is a difference between them, you simply never reach it. But since there is a difference, you can average them, it would be .99999...05. You end up with weird stuff no matter if you say they are equal or are not equal. The problem lies in infinite numbers. I should have clarified. .999999...=1 is not illogical, but infinite numbers can be seen as illogical.


There is no 1 at the end, though. That is the point of a repeating 9 - there are an infinite number of them. 1 - .9999999999... = .0000000.... (without a 1 at the end). You would only get the 1 at the end if there were a finite number of 9's in .9999...

Though it may seem counterintuitive, "1" and ".999..." are just two ways of writing the same number. Similar to "1/2", "2/4", and "0.5".

There is definitely weird (and fun) stuff when dealing with infinity, though. Russell's paradox, the infinite hotel (Hilbert's Hotel), the difference between countable and uncountable infinities, and the cosmological argument for the existence of God, for example.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 5:56:35 AM
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Del Muerte wrote:
Math challenge: What are the odds of a Master tactics, aka Thrawn, winning and losing initiative? no recon.


There are 3 possible outcomes for an initiative roll:

There's a tie. [20/20^2)] = 5%
Thrawn loses (rolled a 1 and opponent did not). [19/20^2] = 4.75%
Thrawn wins (no tie and Thrawn did not roll a 1). [ (20^2 - 19 - 20) / 20^2 ] = 90.25%

However, whenever there is a tie, it will be rerolled until there is no tie, so we only need to concern ourselves with initiative rolls where no tie exists (and all of these are equally likely).

There are a total of (20^2)-20 possible initiative rolls where there is no tie. Of those, Master Tactician wins all except 19 (the 19 where Master Tactician rolled a 1 but the opponent did not).

The probability of Master Tactician failing is 19/(20^2 - 20) = 5%
The probability of Master Tactician succeeding is 1 - [19/(20^2 - 20)] = 95%

In the other calculations for this, the answer was approaching what I have above and if the limit of the summation is taken it would be the same.


defender390 wrote:

1. Fail: .05
2. Reroll, Fail: .05^2
3. RRF: .05^3
4. RRRF: .05^4
5. RRRRF: .05^5
6. RRRRRF: .05^6
7. RRRRRRF: .05^7
8. RRRRRRRF: .05^8
9. RRRRRRRRF: .05^9
10. RRRRRRRRRF: .05^10
FlyingArrow wrote:
This isn't illogical either. 100% is the limit of the summation. (An infinite summation with a finite sum could be viewed as a variation of Zeno's paradoxes)

True, but for the purposes of the game it is illogical. Thrawn will not win 100% of the time.


I apologize. I misread the summation. I thought you included the success as part of the summation. The sum of the probability of a success and the probability of a failure must be 100% (obviously).

The limit of the summation for failures is 5%. The summation above will not come up to 5%, though, because you took the probability of a Thrawn failure on the first roll to be 5% instead of 4.75%. Thrawn has a 5% chance of rolling a 1, but if the opponent also rolls a one then that counts as a tie instead of a Thrawn failure.
defender390
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 6:47:01 AM
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Posts: 396
Good catch, I went into the problem with the wrong mindset. I was just accounting for Thrawn's rolls with a 5% tie. Definite dumb mistake on my part instead of accounting for all rolls possible on both sides. Thanks for the correction. Now, I am not sure about this, but could we adapt the infinite sum equation for the rate of failure to this?

S=g1/(1-r)

g1 would be his failure on first roll, .0475
r would be the rate, which would be his chance of subsequently failing, or .0475 again

S=.0498687664

That would result in a 95.01312336% rate of success and a 4.98687664% rate of failure.
swinefeld
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 6:55:30 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
defender390 wrote:

FlyingArrow wrote:
.999999999... = 1
It's not illogical. Those two are equivalent.

The overall point of the problem is illogical.
1-.99999...=.00000...1
That means that you have an infinite number of 0s with a one on the end. That would be considered equivilent to 0. This also means that 1 and .99999.... are not the same number since there is a difference between them, you simply never reach it. But since there is a difference, you can average them, it would be .99999...05. You end up with weird stuff no matter if you say they are equal or are not equal. The problem lies in infinite numbers. I should have clarified. .999999...=1 is not illogical, but infinite numbers can be seen as illogical.


There is no 1 at the end, though. That is the point of a repeating 9 - there are an infinite number of them. 1 - .9999999999... = .0000000.... (without a 1 at the end). You would only get the 1 at the end if there were a finite number of 9's in .9999...

Though it may seem counterintuitive, "1" and ".999..." are just two ways of writing the same number. Similar to "1/2", "2/4", and "0.5".

There is definitely weird (and fun) stuff when dealing with infinity, though. Russell's paradox, the infinite hotel (Hilbert's Hotel), the difference between countable and uncountable infinities, and the cosmological argument for the existence of God, for example.


I need a drink after all this BlooMilk ...it must be almost 5:00 somewhere! Razz
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:02:10 AM
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defender390 wrote:
Good catch, I went into the problem with the wrong mindset. I was just accounting for Thrawn's rolls with a 5% tie. Definite dumb mistake on my part instead of accounting for all rolls possible on both sides. Thanks for the correction. Now, I am not sure about this, but could we adapt the infinite sum equation for the rate of failure to this?

S=g1/(1-r)

g1 would be his failure on first roll, .0475
r would be the rate, which would be his chance of subsequently failing, or .0475 again

S=.0498687664

That would result in a 95.01312336% rate of success and a 4.98687664% rate of failure.


I don't think I understand the formula you have there. The infinite sum for the rate of failure would be

SUM (i=0 to infinity) (.05)^i * .0475

I can't use Greek letters here, but "SUM(i = 0 to infinity)" would be the summation symbol (a capital sigma).
defender390
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:17:07 AM
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The sigma notation would look like this:


∑ .0475(.0475)^(x-1)
x=1
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:24:49 AM
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defender390 wrote:
The sigma notation would look like this:


∑ .0475(.0475)^(x-1)
x=1


Yes, except inside the parentheses it should be 0.5 (representing the probability of getting ties on the rolls).


∑ .0475(.05)^(x-1)
x=1
defender390
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 7:45:56 AM
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Joined: 12/7/2008
Posts: 396
Well, that makes it 95% and 5%. I need to get more sleep, I am making too many stupid mistakes.

On Topic: Does anybody want me to go further for the cases?
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