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Errata Announcement:: Director Orson Krennic Options
DarkDracul
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 8:21:29 AM
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The V-Set 14 Design Team and Balance Committee have concluded their inquiry into the recent commotion caused by the Death Trooper/ First Order squad. The determination was made that errtum of Director Orson Krennic is needed.

*** Effective Immediately*** Director Orson Krennic Errata

* Rival now includes First Order
*Rapport 3 instead of Rapport 5.
* Second Commander Effect no longer gives Cunning Attack.
* Third Commander Effect will now be ignored by Attacks with Lightsabers.



TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 8:23:25 AM
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The designers of Vset 14 talked with the community, both individually and in Bloomilk threads, talked to Mike Moore himself (who recently dominated the NZ tournament with Krennic and Darktroopers), and then all put our heads together to come up with a unanimous solution.

It's not simply a knee jerk reaction to it winning one tournament. It was more that it was a shocking display of our blindspots, opening our eyes to exactly how far off our aim was, and major synergies we missed.

Clearly the issue lies with Krennic himself (and specifically how much he boosts the Dark Troopers), much more than the Darktroopers independent of Krennic.

The Hux connection was totally overlooked. It rocketed the Death Troopers to an insane defensive rating (especially considering Snokes Doctrine of fear), while they (mostly innately with Krennic) also pump out ludicrous amounts of damage. With a high attack score, and a high attack rating. Thus the need to drop giving out cunning. Additionally, it's much easier to keep the squad abilities going when all FO counts as the same name. Not to mention FP rerolls. Thus the need for the First Order rival.

We made them stronger than intended without them even becoming First Order. With that synergy they go through the roof.

A very bad side effect of the composite of this is that it's ESPECIALLY hard on Jedi. When in general we are trying to make Jedi able to compete at the top levels (and over the last several years we've made great progress, we might be just about right), however this would set them back significantly. Thus the necessity to allow Lightsabers to ignore Krennic's damage reducing CE.

In general it's a really bad idea, and frankly dangerous to have a brand new squad type (as opposed to a single character) rocket to a dominant tier one right out of the gates. It has the potential to create NPEs frequently, and in extreme cases can even fracture the community and cause players to leave for good, as we've seen in the past. It also hampers design for future sets.

We had intended to have this squadtype be tier 2, with some future room for improvement, but ultimately not a dominant force to be reckoned with. With Imperials already having dominant squads centered around Thrawn, Daala, and Vader of Lothal, we didn't want to make the rich richer. We (naively) thought we'd be fine since Krennic couldn't play nicely with any of them (rival to Thrawn, Daala's squad loses prideful, Vader of Lothal has rival to commanders without a force rating or Trooper). That was a grand misfire.

We really feel it's important to take action quickly in this case. We don't want this wound to fester for many months or even years as has sometimes been the case.

I also feel it's important as a designer to stand up and own your mistakes. I personally deserve the lions share of the blame for the disaster Krennic turned out to be. Admitting that, to the community at large, will hopefully prevent (or at least lessen) more resentment.


In summation - these factors heavily weighed in our decision
A) Community concern/outrage over power level
B) Completely not what designers intended
C) Mike Moore (again, winner with this squad type) thought they were too strong and encouraged changes

Happy to answer anyone's questions
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 9:00:43 AM
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For those who missed this post -from the recent Darktroopers thread

TimmerB123 wrote:
Just a couple of PT snippets. (All edited for brevity and pertianant information. This is not all of the PTs, but ones I felt showed a nice variety).

-DTs with 100pt Sidious vs Mandos with a rally master, captain, 4 scouts, gunslinger, gunsmith.
(From the PTer)
"against Cloaked I picked him off pretty easily."

-(With Kallus, in a similar to Shmi's squad above.) They were beat down by a Jyn/Andor + RC Luke, Princess Leia, and the 3 generals.
The major damage output of Jyn and Andor just took down the DTs fairly quickly. Krennic was too valuable to risk moving too close to the action without multiple DTs next to him. As soon as a DT was separated from the rest - they were jumped on and destroyed, Leia's cannon shot being key. Of course Evade and Mobile were keys that helped keep the Rebels alive, and RC Luke getting them where they needed to be. Of course they also outactivated the Imps, which helped a lot.

-In another playtest - 100pt vader was the beast in the middle. It was the DTs only win in PTs
(From the PTer)
"I wanted to try him with 100 point Vader since his CE has movement tricks for Troopers, and because the three standard bases for Imperials (Thrawn, Daala, VoLothal) are all unavailable for Krennic. The troopers were good support shooters, although Unit Bodyguard and Dark Armour don't synergise very well. OR struggled to get through Vader. Vader and Krennic's CEs allowed lots of movement, but the squad is low activation enough it's not a problem IMO."

-DTs, Krennic, a few Death Star Gunners and troopers, Motti and Jerrjerod vs Bo-Katan, Pre-Vizla, Death sabaterus, Mando captain, Kelborn, and an Outrider on speederbike.
This match was a joke. DTs whole thing is reducing damage through bodyguarding. The bike separated them all and dropped them individually like flies. When they were grouped, they were punished by Bo-Katan's Thermal Detenator.



Overall we concluded that Strafe/gallop with damage boosts (Luke and Leia on speeder, Grievous on wheel bike, etc), any enemy moving abilities (push, barrel through, repulse, etc), and direct damage - especially with splash effects (Mira of Nar Shadda, flamethrower, missles, grenades, lightning, Thermal detonator, etc) provided enough bad matchups that they were not going to be overpowered.


Clearly, our assessments were off. Matchup were mostly bad for Krennic/Darktroopers, squad builds were not optimized, and in the PTs there was not always the best play (understandable trying out a completely new concept).

swinefeld
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 9:51:44 AM
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Bloomilk database updated.

The wording I used on Rival and 3rd CE is very slightly different from the card image above.
General_Grievous
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 10:04:15 AM
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Good errata, soooo Unkar now?
jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 10:11:51 AM
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Wow!

fantastic errata, I love the lightsaber part, didn't see Cunning Attack as a huge issue, but sure!
Alek
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 10:31:18 AM
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That is very good errata!! Excellent.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 10:37:55 AM
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General_Grievous wrote:
Good errata


jen'ari wrote:
Wow!

fantastic errata, I love the lightsaber part, didn't see Cunning Attack as a huge issue, but sure!


Alek wrote:
That is very good errata!! Excellent.


Glad the change is liked!
jak
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 2:41:17 PM
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Alek wrote:
That is very good errata!! Excellent.



errata is never good, it shows the incompetence of the designers.
fire 'em all! and replace them with chickens pecking at random stats to create characters.
the results will be similarLOL
swinefeld
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 3:02:15 PM
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jak wrote:
Alek wrote:
That is very good errata!! Excellent.



errata is never good, it shows the incompetence of the designers.
fire 'em all! and replace them with chickens pecking at random stats to create characters.
the results will be similarLOL


Scotch, or martinis? Wink
jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 4:03:05 PM
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jak wrote:
errata is never good, it shows the incompetence of the designers


Well i don't know Jak, everyone makes mistakes. We are all human. And there are some good pieces in set.
I am still under the idea that designs need a balancing system more powerful than they are that look over the "important play tests" and other things to be a safety net.
I think it is silly to not have one

But designers and community being more to open to quick change is a great thing.
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, November 2, 2017 4:39:55 PM
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jen'ari wrote:

I am still under the idea that designs need a balancing system more powerful than they are that look over the "important play tests" and other things to be a safety net.


As a play-tester, part of the issue with this piece, is that last set, the designers spelled out what squad types they wanted tested with each piece. This can be a good tool, but in this case it proved restrictive - the prescribed squad types were mostly focused on using one or two Death Troopers as bodyguards for tank pieces, where obviously they're more effective bodyguarding each other and with more CEs to boost them.

Play-testing has been pretty low the last few sets, even though you've been doing lots of helping with this set - just need more man-power really.
jak
Posted: Friday, November 3, 2017 4:39:32 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
jak wrote:
Alek wrote:
That is very good errata!! Excellent.



errata is never good, it shows the incompetence of the designers.
fire 'em all! and replace them with chickens pecking at random stats to create characters.
the results will be similarLOL


Scotch, or martinis? Wink


Both, pleaseThumbsUp
on the rocks with a twist, and extra dry, with double olive
shmi15
Posted: Friday, November 3, 2017 6:26:53 AM
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TheHutts wrote:
jen'ari wrote:

I am still under the idea that designs need a balancing system more powerful than they are that look over the "important play tests" and other things to be a safety net.


As a play-tester, part of the issue with this piece, is that last set, the designers spelled out what squad types they wanted tested with each piece. This can be a good tool, but in this case it proved restrictive - the prescribed squad types were mostly focused on using one or two Death Troopers as bodyguards for tank pieces, where obviously they're more effective bodyguarding each other and with more CEs to boost them.

Play-testing has been pretty low the last few sets, even though you've been doing lots of helping with this set - just need more man-power really.



At first I didn't really agree with Jenari about a "balance committee" for the designers. But this comment makes me double think that idea..

I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but is this really what the designers thought? This seems very eery to me. I agree all play tests should mean something, and allowing play testers to use anything can be counter productive... But so is Designers saying play this only this way....

I am really at a loss. Is it more important to make sure pieces come out correct during design, so the cards that are produced ( at the expense of players donations) or is it more important to give designers full control so they can do what they want?

If every set we have to change something on some piece... Does it not make more sense to try and catch it before it came out? Obviously just play testing isn't working. So whats the best idea?
TheHutts
Posted: Friday, November 3, 2017 9:52:26 AM
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It was supposed to be a helpful tool to make sure nothing was missed - it just backfired in this case.

And kudos to the designers for quickly acknowledging and changing the piece.
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, November 3, 2017 11:17:51 AM
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Designers suggest ways to try pieces. We certainly did not say to ONLY try it a certain way.

It was playtested in several different ways.

The main thing everyone missed was the Hux connection.
Alek
Posted: Friday, November 3, 2017 11:36:31 AM
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>>errata is never good...<< ????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are WRONG.
Well, this one is especially good!
surf_rider56
Posted: Friday, November 3, 2017 12:59:41 PM
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jak wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
jak wrote:
Alek wrote:
That is very good errata!! Excellent.



errata is never good, it shows the incompetence of the designers.
fire 'em all! and replace them with chickens pecking at random stats to create characters.
the results will be similarLOL


Scotch, or martinis? Wink


Both, pleaseThumbsUp
on the rocks with a twist, and extra dry, with double olive


Make mine a double bourbon, straight. Do it right or don't do it children RollEyes
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Friday, November 3, 2017 5:01:54 PM
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I was the guy who played Mike in the final of LowerHuttaCon and lost to the Death Troopers (as well as losing rather horribly to him in an earlier match). And while the First Order/ Death Troopers combination was certainly powerful, I don't think it was broken. Tier 1, yes, but not game-breaking. I almost won the final (and would have done so if I had rolled one attack a little higher near the end), despite the considerable damage output and defensive capabilities. In the earlier game, I was simply unprepared for the squad type and had no idea how to beat it (in addition to not being very good a player). I can definitely see why this errata has happened, but I don't personally want the Imperial Tier 1 to always remain stagnant with Daala, Thrawn and Lothal builds, and every new sub-faction added nerfed so that they can never challenge the top squads. (But equally, I want other factions to be just as strong as them, so errata away if the Imperials are getting too strong).
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, November 3, 2017 5:36:40 PM
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Lothal is top tier?
But you make a great point it is time for a tier 1 shift.
Screw rebels and Imperials.
And new republic had tons of Jedi and the top tier 1 build is Han, corellian with wedge? Luke Skywalker, the best of all time is in the faction!!

But designers need to get serious about getting melee to be top tier.
I am glad they are halting new nonmelee powers and keeping them away from melee hate
We just need to get melee on the map more.
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