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Balance Committee: pls reconsider Rigged Detonators and/or Mira of Nar Shaddaa Options
gholli69
Posted: Monday, July 26, 2021 1:15:40 AM
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What Gandalf said. Taking away RD would certainly not make her unplayable with all the other tricks she offers. I would still probably take her over Dash most times at 28 points just because she hits more consistently on her attack rolls, but Dash at least gets some consideration at 28 points if she loses RD.
Mando
Posted: Monday, July 26, 2021 5:09:14 AM
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my thought on RD being addressed is that it probably should just change to be where it specifies only failing saves against grenades,missles and mines. That seems to be to be the best solution imo. We errata's suppresive fire for some good reasons and Morrigan is still used but not as overpowered as she once was. As a Hutt Cartel player, i included Mira in my squad because of the fact Rigged Detanators also made targets fail saves on attacks. So that made the cannon shot from Jabba even more potent since it was an auto 30-40 dmg in most situations. I did use the grenades sometimes in the game but mostly i was just using her attacks because an auto 30-40dmg with twin attack on her turn is very strong against tanky targets. I don't think the designers intended her to use rigged detanators on her shots. 40 damage is ok with grenades but not game breaking imo. people usually don't place people adjacent when she's around because it gets more effective when you can deal 40 auto damage to 2 or 3 people. i think this is a nice deterrent to bodyguard.

Also, i'd like to point out that while Mira is strong offensively, she has no defensive capabilities. He strongest defense is her mobility with using a force point and Agile. but if someone catches up to her, she's gone. If she'd had stealth or evade built into her kit she would be a serious issue. but you can draw a line of sight to her and shoot her from a long ways away and deal with her effectively. Morrigan Corde isn't as easy to deal with because of her built in evade and slightly higher defense score.
jak
Posted: Monday, July 26, 2021 6:05:14 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Banning her is the simplest solution.

The second simplest solution is to raise her cost.

Anything beyond that is unnecessary complication. "But the change is to just..." Yes, whatever change it is would be simple, I'm sure. But there are so many small simple changes already. People who are paying attention should be able to remember all the errata in the game, and we're probably beyond that already for most of us.



just banning a piece, show lack of creativity and problem solving.
however, over convoluted rules are one of the things I dislike abut SWM

IMHO, Flying Arrow hit the bullseye with his 2nd solution, simply raise the cost.ThumpUp
imyurhukaberry
Posted: Monday, July 26, 2021 6:16:05 AM
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4 out of the 6 squads in the semi-finals had Mira in them...ironically the winner did not have her in his squad.
Of the other squads that didn't make the semi-finals, only two squads had her.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Monday, July 26, 2021 7:01:15 PM
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Mira is far from the biggest NPE in the game. I think if attacks were removed from the definition, she is still good but not overpowered. In her case, she'll still have to get close to use her grenades, and she is squishy enough to not make that an easy decision.

I think an incremental change is better than a ban or a total change to a definition. Remember Zygerrian Slaver? Neither do I.

Honestly this past week, I saw some pieces that have become much bigger NPEs Than Mira.
swinefeld
Posted: Monday, July 26, 2021 9:00:37 PM
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I'm watching this with interest, but just as a spectator. I'm not in BC.
Overkill seems accurate.
DarthMaim
Posted: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 3:44:56 AM
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jak wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Banning her is the simplest solution.

The second simplest solution is to raise her cost.

Anything beyond that is unnecessary complication. "But the change is to just..." Yes, whatever change it is would be simple, I'm sure. But there are so many small simple changes already. People who are paying attention should be able to remember all the errata in the game, and we're probably beyond that already for most of us.



just banning a piece, show lack of creativity and problem solving.
however, over convoluted rules are one of the things I dislike abut SWM

IMHO, Flying Arrow hit the bullseye with his 2nd solution, simply raise the cost.ThumpUp



+1.
Udorian84
Posted: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 5:13:13 AM
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I wouldn't try to make Dash playable. He just doesn't fit today's game. Greater Mobile used to be a defensive ability but you can get anywhere you want or need in today's have. Override used to be powerful to stop the spreading of squads as well, but that's gone.
I would just focus on Mira. If you up her cost i would make it 33-36 She has already been accounted for by most people. I am sure I have learned my lesson from her. And like any power piece I change my style when facing her.
imyurhukaberry
Posted: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 5:46:37 AM
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If I were to add my non-current-playing two cents, I don't really understand why the RD would include attacks anyway? Should just be special abilities. Alter that and leave the rest.

Now...I'm not sure how that affects new Zam...as in, if they factored the "attacks" part of RD into her cost, but I would imagine with all her abilities and having Missiles 30, that she should still be worth 44 pts.
jen'ari
Posted: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 5:53:13 AM
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More errata?

Was Mira in the winning squad?
Nope she was actually on the squad that lost in the finals by the best Mira player in the game

She has been around for forever, if you don't know how to play against her by now you have a playing problem tbh.
No need to errata something just because it is powerful.
She loses a lot.

The balance committee should not be changing things unless there is any issue in balance.
At the 21-35 point cost there are other good things that are equal in power.
It is just that Mira is an escape to tactical playing. You can throw her out there and count a few squares and there you go! Powerful play! It's easy.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 6:10:25 AM
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Changing Rigged Detonators to affect the saves of grenades, missiles, and mines only is a reasonable and logical change, and one I think should be made. Changing the cost or banning her is too extreme, considering we have a single piece out there of doing a realistic potential of 180 damage to one character and 60 to other characters all in one activation is out there.
jen'ari
Posted: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 6:14:26 AM
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Imo this comes down to high attack ratings and low defenses. If it was the game in word she would max out at a 14 attack and defenses would be 23-25. In cover that makes them 27-29.

If I made any change it would be to her base damage. Make it 10.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 7:32:43 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Banning her is the simplest solution.

The second simplest solution is to raise her cost.

Anything beyond that is unnecessary complication. "But the change is to just..." Yes, whatever change it is would be simple, I'm sure. But there are so many small simple changes already. People who are paying attention should be able to remember all the errata in the game, and we're probably beyond that already for most of us.


I forgot to mention the simplest option: doing nothing. I don't think she's unbalancing the game, so in that sense she doesn't need any adjustment. She's undercosted, but her issue is similar to what we had with the Klatooinian Assassin. The Klat Assassin at cost 12 was so undercosted that no other NU Fringe attackers near its cost range were being played at all. Mira isn't quite to the level the Klat Assassin in terms of pushing things out, but it's the same sort of issue.
Randy
Posted: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 8:18:10 AM
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Darth_Jim wrote:


Honestly this past week, I saw some pieces that have become much bigger NPEs Than Mira.


Do tell, please elaborate. I am curious to see what you are coming across that is an NPE for you.
DarthMaim
Posted: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 11:54:21 AM
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Darth_Jim wrote:
Changing Rigged Detonators to affect the saves of grenades, missiles, and mines only is a reasonable and logical change, and one I think should be made. Changing the cost or banning her is too extreme, considering we have a single piece out there of doing a realistic potential of 180 damage to one character and 60 to other characters all in one activation is out there.



Big +1. I totally agree with Jim ThumpUp
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 12:31:19 PM
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Randy wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:


Honestly this past week, I saw some pieces that have become much bigger NPEs Than Mira.


Do tell, please elaborate. I am curious to see what you are coming across that is an NPE for you.


Oooh ooh ooh, I'll take this one.

Porgs.


Just really a poorly thought out design. Hey, how do we combat the NPE of a bunch of do nothing sit and spin activations? Make MORE do nothing sit and spin activations! (forehead slap)

I'm not against countering that by the way, it just can be done in much smarter ways.

Here's a better idea (for a unique or higher costed piece): At the end of this character's turn, the enemy must activate a character that is 5 points or less.

Then, when the opponent brings in their Jabba reserves, it's gonna be 6pt or more pieces. Win/win. Don't like those Rodian Brutes as swappers? Activate them! The game goes QUICKER, not SLOWER.


Or how about this:

If no enemy character has LoS to any ally of this piece, you can choose to force the opponent to activate 3 pieces this phase.


So, Opponent hiding? They're gonna sit and spin a lot faster. They in position to strike? You obviously don't use it then. It forces the opponent to engage or get activated too quickly. Win/win
AceAce
Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2021 5:20:37 PM
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About 3 more months of Jabba and this thread title will change. Mark it.
Udorian84
Posted: Thursday, July 29, 2021 6:00:42 PM
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AceAce wrote:
About 3 more months of Jabba and this thread title will change. Mark it.


Sorry for my not understanding, but what does that mean?
thereisnotry
Posted: Friday, July 30, 2021 12:59:05 PM
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To be clear, I'm not saying that Mira is the only broken piece in the game, nor am I saying that she is the most broken piece in the game. She is not in the realm of Daala. It could very well be that the new Jabba needs a tweak (that might be a worthwhile discussion, but it's not one for this thread).

I'm simply saying that Mira is bad for the game because of Rigged Detonators.

And FWIW, I would not want to see her banned...she's fun to use, but she simply needs a tweak (either removing RD or changing the RD ability itself).
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, July 30, 2021 1:24:36 PM
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thereisnotry wrote:
To be clear, I'm not saying that Mira is the only broken piece in the game, nor am I saying that she is the most broken piece in the game. She is not in the realm of Daala. It could very well be that the new Jabba needs a tweak (that might be a worthwhile discussion, but it's not one for this thread).

I'm simply saying that Mira is bad for the game because of Rigged Detonators.

And FWIW, I would not want to see her banned...she's fun to use, but she simply needs a tweak (either removing RD or changing the RD ability itself).


She is not a problem. You might have lost to her a couple of times though. So of course it is a "problem" that needs change.
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