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The (Rebel) elephant in the room Options
Boris
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:14:22 AM
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Okay so I will preface this by saying that stating an opinion or suggestion here in no way guarantees it will be done but it will certainly be considered. As we delve into v-set 4, one of the questions we are pondering over is, what about the OT Rebels (meaning specifically Han, Luke, Leia, and Chewbacca). We know that Bastila knocked them out of contention, and while we certainly don't want to just disregard what she does for the game, we are left wondering how do we get them back into it in a way that she and the other elements we've added are still a threat without completely ignoring the many versions we have of the existing characters?

What would you do with the OT Rebels? Do you want to see them at the center of the game, or are you as tired of them as most people were when they were on the very top? I'm not asking for stat cards and I can tell you right now I won't even look at any that get posted. I steer clear of that as much as possible but I do listen to good concept suggestions or even ability/commander effect ideas.

Would you rather see brand new versions of all the OT characters or things done to enhance what's out there already?

Thanks for your input. :)
Lord_Ball
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:51:31 AM
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I think Synergy would go a long way in this regard. It fits the characters and gives a benefit that Bastila can't cancel + it can be activated (or act upon) new and old characters provided the name contains fits, this provides a nice mix and match of options.
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 5:16:57 AM
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Lord_Ball wrote:
I think Synergy would go a long way in this regard. It fits the characters and gives a benefit that Bastila can't cancel + it can be activated (or act upon) new and old characters provided the name contains fits, this provides a nice mix and match of options.


Agreed. I like how some of the stuff in the NR works. That model could be used for the Rebel heroes to good effect.
saber1
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 6:00:13 AM
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I like the idea of a multifaceted approach. A new version of an OT character or two, Synergy (as mentioned above) and a CE or two (perhaps on the long absent Rebel Mon Mothma).
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 6:00:37 AM
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In SWCCG, there were a series of Effects that worked with the big 4 (I Wonder Who They Found, That's One, Count Me In, I'm With You Too). Synergy is fine, but I would like to see more unique effects when the big 4 are together. Have a special abilities that is decent, but gets better if you have all 4. Something like

I Wonder Who They Found (Modify your initiative roll by +2 for each character whose name contains Chewbacca, Leia, or Luke is in your squad. Characters in your squad whose name contains Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and Luke modify their Atk +1 for each character whose name contains Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and Luke in your squad.)
That's One (This character gains Double Attack when within 6 of a character whose name contains Han. While in the same squad as a character whose name contains Han, Luke, and Leia, those characters and this character ignore Low Objects and Difficult Terrain while moving)
Count Me In (When this character takes damage, an ally whose name contains Han may make 1 Immediate Attack at +10 Dam against the attacker. If in a squad with a character whose name contains Han, Chewbacca, and Luke, this character gains Draw Fire and Intution)
I'm With You Too (Allies whose name contains Leia may use this character's Force points. Allies whose name contains Han, Leia, or Chewbacca add +4 to their saves.)

In short, make it interesting when they are with at least one other of the Big 4, but make it much better to bring all 4. Synergy is kind of boring, make something far, far more interesting to combine the big 4, as it should be. Make them represent the heroes of the saga they are. Heck, toss in Threepio, Artoo, and Lando as well.

Edit: Finally found the card for the quote for the Han version of the Big 4 Effects.
saber1
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 6:03:29 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
In SWCCG, there were a series of Effects that worked with the big 4 (That's One, Count Me In, I'm With You Too). Synergy is fine, but I would like to see more unique effects when the big 4 are together. Have a special abilities that is decent, but gets better if you have all 4. Something like

Prepping the Strike Team (Modify your initiative roll by +2 for each character whose name contains Chewbacca, Leia, or Luke is in your squad. Characters in your squad whose name contains Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and Luke modify their Atk +1 for each character whose name contains Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and Luke in your squad.)
That's One (This character gains Double Attack when within 6 of a character whose name contains Han. While in the same squad as a character whose name contains Han, Luke, and Leia, those characters and this character ignore Low Objects and Difficult Terrain while moving)
Count Me In (When this character takes damage, an ally whose name contains Han may make 1 Immediate Attack at +10 Dam against the attacker. If in a squad with a character whose name contains Han, Chewbacca, and Luke, this character gains Draw Fire and Intution)
I'm With You Too (Allies whose name contains Leia may use this character's Force points. Allies whose name contains Han, Leia, or Chewbacca add +4 to their saves.)

In short, make it interesting when they are with at least one other of the Big 4, but make it much better to bring all 4. Synergy is kind of boring, make something far, far more interesting to combine the big 4, as it should be. Make them represent the heroes of the saga they are. Heck, toss in Threepio, Artoo, and Lando as well.


YES! I like it. I like it a lot
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 6:08:54 AM
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I want to see them at the 'center of the game', as in a tier 1 option. I think parity between factions is good, though, not any one faction (or piece) dominating the meta.

Brand new versus enhancing what's out there: both.
A new version of a character that also boosts an old piece (of some other character, obviously).
EmporerDragon
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 6:17:55 AM
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I'd like to see them take the center stage as well.

One thing WotC did with the main characters was consistently releasing new, relevant versions of the character to retain the appeal for the more casual SW fan. After all, a battle between Luke and Vader will catch an onlooker's eye more than a battle between Vander and Weir.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 6:28:34 AM
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I like Bastila - overall a net positive for the game. Makes OR playable (even winning GenCon!), and eliminates super-CE heavy squads from the meta, which is fine. Unfortunately, it also does a pretty good job of nerfing squads with even a single crucial CE.

Here's an idea that I think should actually be on a Fringe Unique piece, so that every faction could use it, but only one per squad:

Communications Expert - Replaces turn. Select an adjacent ally. For the rest of the round, the ally's commander effect may not be suppressed.

Name of the ability could be whatever is appropriate for the character. It should be on a relatively high-cost figure where the decision between attacking and enabling the CE is an actual decision... not just a 10-point or less scrub who just shadows the commander.


Or, for a smaller effect (one activation at a time):

Communications Assistant - Replaces turn. Select an adjacent ally. For the rest of the phase, the ally's commander effect may not be suppressed.

That one could go on a scrub type piece.


--OR--

Instead of acting on the commander, it could act on the followers...
Communications Expert - Replaces turn. For the rest of the round, commander effects that would affect allies within 6 squares may not be suppressed.
Communications Assistant - Replaces turn. For the rest of the phase, commander effects that would affect allies within 6 squares may not be suppressed.
coffeebean
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 6:38:22 AM
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i have to agree about lots of synergy, rapport. im not against seeing the big 4 at the top, just not on top.

i think force withdrawl or something of the like would be great to keep a bubble around the big 4 and still keep them using CE even when bastila is on the board.(that is unless force immunity doesnt keep your commander effect from being suppressed.)

maybe an ability that hands out synergy, like medical supplies hands out heal.

other than that i think it will be difficult to prepare rebels against bastila without long winded special abilities.

on last idea is this:

Infiltrator: this character is subject to enemy commander effects.

bastila cant stop you if your gaining a bonus fromn her commander effect.
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 7:20:54 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
In short, make it interesting when they are with at least one other of the Big 4, but make it much better to bring all 4. Synergy is kind of boring, make something far, far more interesting to combine the big 4, as it should be. Make them represent the heroes of the saga they are. Heck, toss in Threepio, Artoo, and Lando as well.


This is what I would like to see.

synergy, lower case s.

Not dominant, but strong enough to have a shot at beating almost anything with good play and a bit of luck.
qvos
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:20:24 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
I like Bastila - overall a net positive for the game. Makes OR playable (even winning GenCon!), and eliminates super-CE heavy squads from the meta, which is fine. Unfortunately, it also does a pretty good job of nerfing squads with even a single crucial CE.

Here's an idea that I think should actually be on a Fringe Unique piece, so that every faction could use it, but only one per squad:

Communications Expert - Replaces turn. Select an adjacent ally. For the rest of the round, the ally's commander effect may not be suppressed.

Name of the ability could be whatever is appropriate for the character. It should be on a relatively high-cost figure where the decision between attacking and enabling the CE is an actual decision... not just a 10-point or less scrub who just shadows the commander.


Or, for a smaller effect (one activation at a time):

Communications Assistant - Replaces turn. Select an adjacent ally. For the rest of the phase, the ally's commander effect may not be suppressed.

That one could go on a scrub type piece.


--OR--

Instead of acting on the commander, it could act on the followers...
Communications Expert - Replaces turn. For the rest of the round, commander effects that would affect allies within 6 squares may not be suppressed.
Communications Assistant - Replaces turn. For the rest of the phase, commander effects that would affect allies within 6 squares may not be suppressed.
I like this well thought out approach. I too like what Bastilla has done for the game. Seeing The rebels be Tough again, but I would also like to see the Imps be very tough and compete.
SquelchDog
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:40:41 AM
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Boris wrote:
Would you rather see brand new versions of all the OT characters or things done to enhance what's out there already?

Thanks for your input. :)


I would much rather see things done to enhance what's out there already? ThumpUp

Thanks BlooMilk
kezzamachine
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:03:29 PM
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I think the good thing that Bastilla does against the Rebels is that she nerfs those all-to-abusive CEs provided by Reikaan and Dod's... which folk have decried like forever. The bad side of that is that if nerfs everything else too, and Rebels don't have any other real answer!

I like that the Vong have special abilities instead of CEs (in some cases) - perhaps that is an avenue for a new Han or Luke (or whoever) - the ability to give all unique Rebel followers blah.

I also like the latest thinking in giving an as yet unnamed Mando commander Relay Orders, in that the idea is Mandos would often move in small groups and still communicate their commands etc. I bring this up, because I think the hero-group of the Rebels functioned much the same way... Luke, Han, Leia, Chewy, and the droids vs. the Empire. Obviously the CE part of that is not what I'm thinking, more the small groups. A SA for unique followers within 6 again...?

I'm of two minds as to whether I'd like to see new OT heros or vamp old ones. Certainly, there are really good old ones, but you'd have to bring in a new hero (or other support character?) anyway to lift them up... But I do like *new* stuff. My unpopular view is that I'd loooooove to see an uber-melee Luke Rebel to match what he was doing on the Death Star in smacking out Vader (and something akin to betrayl to 'turn' his father)... but that goes nowhere near solving this'n (I just wanted to raise it again.... and also there's quite a nice Epic Rebel Luke - kudos!).

I'm not sure I like the idea of having a Special Ability or Force Power that defies Bastilla's ABM... as I think that would go too far the other way of making the Rebels able to counter what the OR have gained... counter for counter for counter etc. I think a SA that benefits unique Rebels in 6 is better. Its like Synergy but "more interesting"!
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:38:44 PM
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I think a partial counter (like what's described above) is what's needed. Bastila's anti-CE ability is just too sweeping. I don't think eliminating CEs from the meta entirely is the way to go. Saying "too much disruptive/Bastila" and just going to SAs as a fallback is basically giving up on CEs in the meta.
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:47:21 PM
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I don't really like the idea of making a whole set of new Rebel pieces that completely bypass Bastila. In my ideal world, each of the nine factions would be played about equally, and each would have some easier and harder matchups against other factions. Since they're CE heavy, Rebels should find OR a difficult matchup.

It would be good if Rebels had the tools to make the matchup a contest, so that a skilled Rebel player would lose more than half the time to a skilled OR player, but that it wouldn't be an autoloss either. I don't know the rebels well enough to know how to accomplish this, but I don't really like the idea of loading them up with synergies etc so much that Bastila is no longer a factor. Maybe the rebels need something to get round the defensive abilities of Jedi Battlemasters etc; like a shooter whose damage Force users can't negate if they're hit.
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:57:41 PM
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I fully support new versions with SA's that only specifically boost the big 4. They shouldn't be CE's, because the SA's are more about how the Big 4 worked together. The thing about such things, they wouldn't have to be just for the new versions. Make it so that they work best with certain older versions.

In the end, just slapping on Synergy and Rapport is just so boring, and is not truly representative of the Big 4's relationship. Make them more effective when you team them up.

As for the issue of Bastilla and CE dependent factions, I don't support wholesale of CE-esque SAs, like Fire Control, but for the Rebels, definately for the Big 4. I think there are some creative ways to discount her power that can be come up with.
coffeebean
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 2:00:56 PM
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does bastilas commander effect work on commander effects during initiative? also if she is activated before her turn (stun,jolt) does her commander effect continue on or does it stop with the activation? and finally if she gained force immunity by ysalamiri, would that stop the effects of her ABM?

i realize these are questions for another forum, but im not entirely sure how ABM works.
coffeebean
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 2:10:15 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
I fully support new versions with SA's that only specifically boost the big 4. They shouldn't be CE's, because the SA's are more about how the Big 4 worked together. The thing about such things, they wouldn't have to be just for the new versions. Make it so that they work best with certain older versions.

In the end, just slapping on Synergy and Rapport is just so boring, and is not truly representative of the Big 4's relationship. Make them more effective when you team them up.

As for the issue of Bastilla and CE dependent factions, I don't support wholesale of CE-esque SAs, like Fire Control, but for the Rebels, definately for the Big 4. I think there are some creative ways to discount her power that can be come up with.


so what your saying is the big 4 need some kind of order 66 ability that would be retoactive to older figures too?

what about:

Rebel Hero as a special ability? maybe figures with the REBEL HERO SA can activate simultainously as a group in any combination but still only count as 1 activation? to portray just how well they worked together. it may not make them a great counter to bastilla, but it would make them a deadly first activation squad:)
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 2:22:13 PM
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coffeebean wrote:
does bastilas commander effect work on commander effects during initiative? also if she is activated before her turn (stun,jolt) does her commander effect continue on or does it stop with the activation? and finally if she gained force immunity by ysalamiri, would that stop the effects of her ABM?

i realize these are questions for another forum, but im not entirely sure how ABM works.


(1) The effects of Advanced Battle Meditation last until the start of her next turn, so she can affect Commander Effects that occur during Initiative. Off the top of my head I can't think of any CEs that occur during Initiative.
(2) Bastila's Advanced Battle Meditation is subject to this glossary definition of force abilities: "Force abilities that don't last until the end of the skirmish are negated prematurely if the character using it rolls a save, spends Force points, makes an attack, or is dealt damage."
(3) Any characters inside the Ysalamiri Force Bubble are not subject to Advanced Battle Meditation. I can't see how Bastila would end up inside a Ysalamiri Force Bubble very often in a game (you'd have to throw Pallaeon in deep, and he'd be pretty easy for Bastila to kill), but if she was, I assume Advanced Battle Meditation would be negated.
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